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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Yes, with the caveat/understanding that the nominal/nameplate HP rating directly informs the motor efficiency.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img width="726" height="9" style="width:7.5625in;height:.0937in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D3014B.D70C2A30"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Schneider Electric</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">E </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
Suite 204<br>
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United States</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Mayank Bhatnagar [mailto:mayank.23aug@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 19, 2017 11:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jim Dirkes <jim@buildingperformanceteam.com>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Proposed Case fan power modelling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks to Jim, Christopher, Patrick, Daniel and Nick for giving insight of fan power modelling. What I understood from the conversation is: The fan power consumption is the function of BHP and motor efficiency NOT the rated motor HP.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks again!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mayank<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Nicholas Caton <<a href="mailto:Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com" target="_blank">Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Terminology can be a beast with fan/pump motor power calcs.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“Fan absorbed power” isn’t a phrase I’ve encountered frequently but suggests to me work done by the fan on the air
(or vise versa), presumably at design conditions for your case. I would intuitively use this
<u>in combination with</u> your knowledge of the nameplate HP rating to determine appropriate fan power inputs. Leverage the nameplate HP rating of 7.5 to determine a reasonable motor efficiency first.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">So – quick aside for Recommended further reading: </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m8036221722345080338msolistparagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The “I don’t have time!” suggestion: Chapter 10 tables from 90.1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m8036221722345080338msolistparagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“Hit me with the good stuff!”
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwitnt6Y_ZLVAhUCeSYKHcRdCZ0QFggiMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fenergy.gov%2Fsites%2Fprod%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F04%2Ff15%2Famo_motors_handbook_web.pdf&usg=AFQjCNE2OJ-TJR5_EFu34EoAiPO1PMP9BA" target="_blank">
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwitnt6Y_ZLVAhUCeSYKHcRdCZ0QFggiMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fenergy.gov%2Fsites%2Fprod%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F04%2Ff15%2Famo_motors_handbook_web.pdf&usg=AFQjCNE2OJ-TJR5_EFu34EoAiPO1PMP9BA</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m8036221722345080338msolistparagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Highlights include:
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m8036221722345080338msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">o</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Table 3-3 detailing solid documentation for full load efficiencies for older large motors (excludes winding degradation losses for motors that haven’t been serviced).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m8036221722345080338msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">o</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Table 2-1 should look familiar to those perusing 90.1 over the past decade.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m8036221722345080338msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">o</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I recall on skimming today that Chapter 3 was super helpful for me learning to both digest and intelligently request direct measurements of operating motor performance in the field.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">So back to the problem. Descriptively: [Power In] = [Work accomplished by the fan: 4.73 bhp] / [Motor efficiency].
For a new motor that should lead you to something in-between 4.73 and 7.5 hp. </span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Since you CC’ed eQuest-users specifically: For developing eQuest inputs, additionally consider your flow rate associated
with that design operating point to determine a kW/CFM input: [kW/CFM] = 4.73* 0.7457 / motor-eff / CFM. Best paired with a corresponding system design airflow rate input that isn’t getting overridden due to site elevation (air density) or zonal flow demands.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">A related nugget perhaps helpful to share, as this confused me for some years:
<u>motor efficiencies</u> in broad strokes do vary, but not much between 50-100% of nominal horsepower
<u>load</u> with all else being equal (distinct from motor <u>speed</u>!). It’s pretty normal to see motors “oversized/underloaded” motors with high nameplate horsepower relative to their actual full-load operating power requirement, and that isn’t necessarily
a bad thing. The above document includes some examples and further explanatory text illustrating where “right-sizing” a fan motor can result in identical or worse power input, where the points of efficiency gained for operating closer to full capacity are
countered by the points of efficiency lost inherent to smaller motor sizes. </span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="726" height="9" style="width:7.5625in;height:.0937in" id="m_8036221722345080338Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D3014B.D70C2A30"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Dirkes via Bldg-sim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 18, 2017 6:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mayank Bhatnagar <<a href="mailto:mayank.23aug@gmail.com" target="_blank">mayank.23aug@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Proposed Case fan power modelling</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;color:blue">If the fan is using 4.73BHP, that's the value to consider for energy cost. It is very common for a motor to have greater capacity than
is actually used.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:24 AM, Mayank Bhatnagar via Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hello Everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Ours is a Residential Project with PTAC units and DOAS in the Proposed design. The DOAS nameplate motor HP is 7.5 where as the fan absorbed power is 4.73 BHP. If we model 7.5 HP;
we are falling short of the minimum LEED energy performance requirements. Modelling
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">4.73 BHP just gives us enough savings.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Which one is the correct fan power to model?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I have been through the archives and didn't find appropriate answer. Please help!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Mayank.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">James V Dirkes II, CEO / President<br>
The Building Performance Team Inc.<br>
1631 Acacia Dr, GR, MI 49504<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">(alphabet soup of efforts for excellence: PE, BEMP, BCxP, LEED AP)<br>
<br>
Direct / Mobile: 616.450.8653<br>
<a href="mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">jim@buildingperformanceteam.com</a><br>
<br>
<a href="http://buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">Website </a>l <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;-ms-text-autospace:"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Coffee conversation:</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;-ms-text-autospace:"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">They love truth when it enlightens them, they hate truth when it accuses them… They love truth when it reveals itself, and hate it when it reveals
them<i>.</i></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;-ms-text-autospace:"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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