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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Agree with everything you say below. Reasonably achievable is probably the best, lol. Just wanted to emphasize getting reasonably achievable is the goal not just getting done.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Jim Dirkes [mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 16, 2016 8:47 AM<br><b>To:</b> Andrew S. Hoover <andyhoover@thebestconsultant.com><br><b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'>Andrew,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'>Not trying to be difficult here, but it might be better to substitute "reasonable" or "representative" for "accurate". From a certain perspective none of our energy models are accurate. Especially for Appendix G comparisons of new building designs, there are so many variables which are not known with high confidence!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'>What's the infiltration rate - really?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'>What is the occupancy or lighting or plug load diversity - really?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'>What is the part load performance - as installed?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'>etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'>I'm always glad to learn of research which quantifies the impact of topics about which I have a gut check, but don't have time to actually investigate. The paper Nick cited would be one of them. Those ASHRAE people are also pretty good at doing their homework when writing standards such as 90.1, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'>I ALWAYS attempt to input the best available information, using a good understanding of building science, physics and heat transfer. Nonetheless, I also realize that there are dozens of variables that will not match with actual operation.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'>p.s., I used 16 facets for my last round tower just to be more confident :)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'><img width=530 height=562 style='width:5.525in;height:5.8583in' id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D2577D.9E01C3D0" alt="Inline image 2"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:12 AM, Andrew S. Hoover via Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Can does not mean you will have an accurate model. All too often the questions are about what can or what must I do and not about what is best to do.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Bldg-sim [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Leonard Sciarra via Bldg-sim<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 15, 2016 1:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a name="m_1399760139389755365__MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Julian – </span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>The text is written to include 45 degrees. So if they are 45 degrees, then you can make it a square, although the exception was intended for curved surfaces.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Hope this helps.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> <br><b>Leonard Sciarra, AIA, ASHRAE, LEED ap+ </b><br>Senior Associate <br><a href="tel:(312)%20577-6580" target="_blank">+1 312.577.6580</a> Direct <br><a href="tel:(312)%20456-0123" target="_blank">+1 312.456.0123</a> Main <br><a href="tel:(847)%20345-5619" target="_blank">+1 847.345.5619</a> Mobile <br> <br></span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#EE3224'>Gensler </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br>11 East Madison Street<br>Suite 300 <br>Chicago, Illinois 60602 <br>USA</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="http://www.gensler.com/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Gensler.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> | </span><a href="http://www.gensleron.com/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Blog</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> | </span><a href="http://www.facebook.com/GenslerDesign" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Facebook</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> | </span><a href="http://www.twitter.com/GenslerOnCities" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Twitter</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> | </span><a href="http://www.youtube.com/GenslerTV" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>YouTube</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>What’s ahead for design and our clients?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Find out here: </span><a href="http://www.gensler.com/doc/gensler-design-forecast-2016" target="_blank"><b><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:red'>Gensler Design Forecast 2016</span></i></b></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Bldg-sim [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>via Bldg-sim<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:17 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'>Hello,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'>Does anyone know how to interpret “</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>no more than 45 degrees” of </span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'>exception 5.b - table G3.1 (90.1-2007/2010/2013) ? : </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:35.4pt'><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>5. Building Envelope</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:35.4pt;text-autospace:none'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>All components of the building envelope in the proposed design shall be modeled as shown on architectural drawings or as built for existing building envelopes. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt;text-indent:35.4pt;text-autospace:none'><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Exceptions:</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt;text-autospace:none'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>b. Exterior surfaces whose azimuth orientation and tilt differ by no more than 45 degrees and are otherwise the same may be described as either a single surface or by using multipliers.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'>Because “no more than 45 degree” include 45 degree, does the exception still apply if the azimuth of two walls is exactly 45 degrees? </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'>In other words, considering a LEED project, can a perfect octagonal building shape be modeled as a square building (as long as they have the same floor area and the 8 walls have a similar construction) ?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'>Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif"'>Julien</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Droid Serif";color:#1F497D'>____________________________________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Julien Dutel,</span></b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> ing., </span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>CEM, CMVP<b>.</b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'>Direction des secteurs </span></b><b><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'>résidentiel, institutionnel et des affaires</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'>Bureau de l'efficacité et de l'innovation énergétiques</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'>Ministère de l'Énergie et des Ressources naturelles</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'>5700, 4e Avenue Ouest, B-406</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'>Québec (Québec) G1H 6R1</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'>Téléphone : <a href="tel:(418)%20627-6379" target="_blank">418 627-6379</a>, poste 8060</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'>Téléphone sans frais : <a href="tel:(877)%20727-6655" target="_blank">1 877 727-6655</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'>Télécopieur : <a href="tel:(418)%20643-5828" target="_blank">418 643-5828</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:julien.dutel@mern.gouv.qc.ca" target="_blank">julien.dutel@mern.gouv.qc.ca</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=FR-CA style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'><a href="http://mern.gouv.qc.ca" target="_blank">mern.gouv.qc.ca</a></span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=FR-CA> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bldg-sim mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP<br>CEO/President<br>The Building Performance Team Inc.<br>1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504<br><br>Direct: 616.450.8653<br><a href="mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">jim@buildingperformanceteam.com</a><br><br><a href="http://buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">Website </a>l <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a> | <a href="http://buildingperformanceteam.com/bpt-insights-blog/item/73-modeled-performance-isn-t-actual-performance" target="_blank">May 2016 ASHRAE Journal article on energy modeling</a><o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>All people should seek Truth, and seek it with love's reckless passion. Without that passion, difficulties seem insurmountable and soon erode the search. Society often regards intensity of conviction as dangerous, when it should be cherished so long as it continues to demonstrate love.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>