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<p class="MsoNormal">Nick,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think the relative impact of the degree of simplification would probably depend on a number of factors. Three that immediately come to mind are:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Calculation method for transmitted solar radiation – does the software incorporate natural incident angle dependent transmittance values that are a part of how glass behaves? I know there’s a big difference between using the simplified
method in eQUEST and actually using the detailed input (either the LBNL window way or just picking an actual glass from the library).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Type of building – if it’s a more skin dominant load, then you will see a greater impact from the simplification.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]>Orientation (I’m guessing some orientations are more sensitive to this).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Caton via Bldg-sim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 15, 2016 10:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Leonard Sciarra <leonard_sciarra@gensler.com>; julien.dutel@mern.gouv.qc.ca<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Put another way:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you have a perfectly circular floorplate, ASHRAE wants you to model an octagon, with respect to a minimum number of facets.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This specific query reminds me: There was a pretty interesting thought-study presented at ASHRAE’s energy conference in 2015 where someone tested this logic, by asking the question (paraphrasing) “how few facets can we get away with and
still accurately represent a perfect circle?” I don’t recall exactly the answer but the results surprised me with how far you could go in simplifying the shape & still maintain relative accuracy. I believe a 4 sided square (corrected geometrically for volume)
in fact performed very closely to the baseline.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you’re sincerely & specifically interested in modeling an octagon as a square, I think you’ll find that could actually be pretty accurate so long as you are correcting for conditioned volume / exposed area. I’d seek out that actual
paper/presentation while you’re at it ;-).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img width="722" height="9" style="width:7.5208in;height:.0937in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D256C5.382C0240" alt="cid:image001.png@01D256C5.382C0240"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Schneider Electric</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6361
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">M </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">785.410.3317
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">E </span><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com</span></a><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">F </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6380</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
Suite 204<br>
Lenexa, KS 66219<br>
United States</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:4.0pt"><span style="color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="722" height="49" style="width:7.5208in;height:.5104in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image002.png@01D256C5.382C0240" alt="cid:image001.png@01D189AB.58634A10"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Bldg-sim [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Leonard Sciarra via Bldg-sim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 15, 2016 12:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Julian –
</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">The text is written to include 45 degrees. So if they are 45 degrees, then you can make it a square, although the exception was intended for curved surfaces.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Hope this helps.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<br>
<b>Leonard Sciarra, AIA, ASHRAE, LEED ap+ </b><br>
Senior Associate <br>
+1 312.577.6580 Direct <br>
+1 312.456.0123 Main <br>
+1 847.345.5619 Mobile <br>
<br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#EE3224">Gensler
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
11 East Madison Street<br>
Suite 300 <br>
Chicago, Illinois 60602 <br>
USA</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.gensler.com/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Gensler.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> | </span><a href="http://www.gensleron.com/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Blog</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> | </span><a href="http://www.facebook.com/GenslerDesign"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Facebook</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> | </span><a href="http://www.twitter.com/GenslerOnCities"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Twitter</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> | </span><a href="http://www.youtube.com/GenslerTV"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">YouTube</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">What’s ahead for design and our clients?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Find out here: </span><a href="http://www.gensler.com/doc/gensler-design-forecast-2016"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:red">Gensler
Design Forecast 2016</span></i></b></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Bldg-sim [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>via Bldg-sim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] LEED project - maximum limit allowed to simplified wall azimuth.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif"">Hello,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif"">Does anyone know how to interpret “</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">no more than 45 degrees” of
</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif"">exception 5.b - table G3.1 (90.1-2007/2010/2013) ? :
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">5. Building Envelope</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">All components of the building envelope in the proposed design shall be modeled as shown on architectural drawings or as built for
existing building envelopes. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt;text-indent:35.4pt;text-autospace:none">
<b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Exceptions:</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">b. Exterior surfaces whose azimuth orientation and tilt differ by no more than 45 degrees and are otherwise the same may be described
as either a single surface or by using multipliers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif"">Because “no more than 45 degree” include 45 degree, does the exception still apply if the azimuth of two walls is exactly 45 degrees?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif"">In other words, considering a LEED project, can a perfect octagonal building shape be modeled as a square building (as long as they have the same floor area
and the 8 walls have a similar construction) ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif"">Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif"">Julien</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-family:"Droid Serif";color:#1F497D">____________________________________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Julien Dutel,</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA"> ing.,
</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">CEM, CMVP<b>.</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Direction des secteurs
</span></b><b><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">résidentiel, institutionnel et des affaires</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Bureau de l'efficacité et de l'innovation énergétiques</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Ministère de l'Énergie et des Ressources naturelles</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">5700, 4e Avenue Ouest, B-406</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Québec (Québec) G1H 6R1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Téléphone : 418 627-6379, poste 8060</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Téléphone sans frais : 1 877 727-6655</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">Télécopieur : 418 643-5828</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:julien.dutel@mern.gouv.qc.ca"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">julien.dutel@mern.gouv.qc.ca</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5;mso-fareast-language:FR-CA">mern.gouv.qc.ca</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="mso-fareast-language:FR-CA"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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