<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Hi David, </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">What is the total square footage of residential vs non-residential (excluding the parking garage)?</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">If the residential and non-residential areas are both over 20,000 square feet, having a predominant condition is a moot point. Model the residential units as System 1 or 2 and the non-residential areas according to Table 3.1 based on the total non-residential square footage and heating source. There is a LEED Interpretation out there that gives examples of various scenarios that your building may fall under. I can't remember the number (somewhere around 10130 or 11130 or something like that???). It's been updated since the original was put out. If I remember correctly, the residential corridors may be considered as either residential or as non-residential....</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">As for the parking garage, it must be handled independently. If it is heating only, either model it with system 9 or 10 (recommended) from App G 2010 or model it identically to the Proposed. If it is heated and cooled, use Table G3.1 based on the square footage. Under no circumstances should a System 1 or 2 be used for a parking garage!</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Keep in mind that if the project is registered, it is also possible to submit a project specific inquiry to GBCI when your way forward is still unclear even after reviewing all available resources such as LEED Interpretations. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Hope this helps! Have a nice weekend!<br><br>Sheila Sagerer</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Sustainability and Energy Services Engineer</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Heapy Engineering </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br><div>Sent from my iPhone</div></div><div><br>On Aug 26, 2016, at 6:17 PM, via Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I agree with Rut: extra caution to consider baseline system types #1 and #2 if you are handling a residential vs. non-residential split. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If this is for LEED also consider whether baseline system types #9 and #10 and the associated new exceptions to G3.1.1 might help clarify your situation (permissible under LEED v3 if you look to the EAp2 documentation workbook).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Also I’d think twice before considering your parking garage for either occupancy type, in this particular context. Carefully review the definitions for “conditioned floor area” </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">à</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> “gross conditioned floor area” </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">à</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> “space” </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">à</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> “unconditioned space” in that order, and you might agree with me that parking garages are not meant to be counted for “conditioned area.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bear in mind, once you have made a successful justification for multiple baseline system types, it doesn’t particularly matter which one was the “predominant” case. It sounds as though you could claim a residential system type as your predominant occupancy (by area), and still invoke the same exception to apply a non-residential baseline type to the non-residential areas.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It still will come to pass however where it <u>totally makes sense</u> to have multiple baseline system types, but the rigid language permitting a distinction only by 20,000sf of conditioned floor area does not capture these realities. When this happens, the best advice I can give is to proactively reach out to the AHJ/reviewer/GBCI to explain your concerns and make your case. I have been both successful and unsuccessful in convincing my past reviewers that the language on the books does not always align with the intent. It comes down to interpretation, but I’d consider including the following when making your case:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Illustrate/demonstrate how the usage/EUI/operations/ventilation rates/whatever is substantially different<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Detail other by-the-book reasons the shoe fits for a different baseline case (i.e. different heating source, residential vs. non-residential).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Show why the interpretation to this exception is important in the end results. If it’s ultimately a big deal to the final numbers, and you convey the gravity of the decision, it may help motivate an otherwise overworked/tired/ready-for-the-weekend reviewer to sharpen their pencils and give your case due consideration.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It also never hurts to offer a direct meeting/conversation… and to say please and thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best of luck!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#3A7A46"><image001.png><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="724" style="width:543.0pt;border-collapse:collapse"><tbody><tr><td width="230" valign="top" style="width:172.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#626469"> Schneider Electric</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width="291" valign="top" style="width:218.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#626469">913.564.6361 </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#57B069">M </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#626469">785.410.3317 </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#57B069">E </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#626469">nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#57B069">F </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#626469">913.564.6380</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width="203" valign="top" style="width:152.4pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>Suite 204<br>Lenexa, KS 66219<br>United States</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr style="height:4.0pt"><td width="724" colspan="3" valign="top" style="width:543.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;height:4.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:4.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3A7A46"><image002.png></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Bldg-sim [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Rut Wattanasak via Bldg-sim<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 26, 2016 1:21 PM<br><b>To:</b> David BRADLEY<br><b>Cc:</b> Building Simulation<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] 90.1 appendix G Baseline System interpretation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">David,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I was just looking into a very similar scenario this morning in fact. I have one question and some follow-up comments as well. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You stated that exception G3.1.1a can be applied, does the non-predominant conditioned space total to be at least 20,000 sf? If so, shouldn't the residential baseline (system #1) be used for all residential units (according to Table G3.1.1A), and not system #3 as you stated? Also in this case, the whole baseline building should be fossil fuel heat source - check LI 10132 that discusses baseline heat source selection, if you're doing this for LEED. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The next step would be to determine the commercial space baseline, based on the floor areas of the first two levels. You might end up with System #3 or #5 depending on the total area of the commercial space. At least that's how I read "ASHRAE Interpretation IC 90.1-2007-05", you can search the quote to find the document. I'm not sure if there's anything else that supercedes that interpretation since.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">To put it simply, if exception a applies, then I'd personally model the upper 3 floors using system #1 and the lower 2 floors with either #3 or #5 based on total commercial space area. That's how I interpreted those two referenced resources. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 1:35 PM, David BRADLEY via Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Colleagues,<br><br> I am working on a 90.1 Appendix G model of a 5-story mixed-use building. The bottom two floors are commercial spaces, the top 3 floors are residential. There is an underground parking garage as well, which I have considered to be part of the residential use). The building is heated by a combination of gas and electricity; gas use predominates. By floor area the building is predominantly residential. However, about 62% of the building's total energy use is associated with the commercial parts. Because of the way that energy use breaks down I am leaning toward considering the building to be non residential, using System 5 as the baseline and taking exception G3.1.1 a (system 3) for the residential spaces. If anyone has experience with such buildings and could share their thoughts on the validity of my interpretation, I would greatly appreciate it.<br><br>kind regards and my thanks in advance<br><br> David<br><br><br><br>-- <br>***************************<br>David BRADLEY<br>Principal<br>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<br>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370<br>Madison, WI 53703 USA<br><br>P:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.274.2577" target="_blank">+1.608.274.2577</a><br>F:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.278.1475" target="_blank">+1.608.278.1475</a><br><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><br><br><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com" target="_blank">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><br><a href="http://www.trnsys.com" target="_blank">http://www.trnsys.com</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bldg-sim mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>______________________________________________________________________<br>This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.<br>______________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Bldg-sim mailing list</span><br><span><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a></span><br><span>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@onebuilding.org">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></span><br></div></body></html>