<div dir="ltr"><div>Joe is correct. What's reported is what's in the weather file... degree days. And what Standard 90.1 (and now Standard 169) reports is based on climate (period of record).</div><div><br></div><div>When using actual weather data, I have seen a location change climate zones from year to year. Which makes sense, some years are warmer and some are cooler. One example I found, Beijing China, for the years 1982-1999, the climate zone varies from 3C to 5A, while the IWEC file is 5A. And Standard 169-2013 has it at 4A (same data as 2009 Handbook).</div><div><br></div><div>FYI, Rome is CZ 3A in 169-2013.</div><div><br></div><div>In all cases, what is in Standard 90.1-2010 is what should be used, based on climatic conditions not a single year of weather. Standard 90.1 (and 189.1) has recently adopted the 169-2013 data, which will be incorporated into 90.1-2016.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Jim Dirkes <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">jim@buildingperformanceteam.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(180,95,6);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Thanks, Joe. I appreciate the additional insights. I suspect that LEED reviewers don't know as much background as you do and are inclined to follow the 90.1 table.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(180,95,6);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(180,95,6);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Francesco, if it's beneficial for your client to use Climate Zone #3, I think you could make a case for that based on Joe's insights and information. If your project is registered with USGBC, you can ask questions in advance of a formal submission of the modeling results - that might be worth doing to settle the question before defining the model.</div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Joe Huang <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com" target="_blank">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
I beg to differ on this. ASHRAE Climate Zones are very simply
defined based of degree days, plus what I consider a faulty use of
precipitation to differentiate "wet" from "dry" climates. When a
EPW stat file gives the ASHRAE Climate Zone as 3, it's simply
reporting the number of degree days in the file, and in that sense,
absolutely correct. The reason for the discrepancy is that ASHRAE
90.1, or actually ASHRAE Standard 169 (Climate Data for Building
Design Standards), did their climate zone mapping, they came up with
a degree day value that put Rome in Climate Zone 4. The problem in
this case is that all 3 weather files for Rome that I've looked into
(IWEC, IWEC2, IGDG - the one used by Francesco) show HDD from 1440
to 1514, much below the 2000 HDD to fall into Climate Zone 4. I
have a good idea how Standard 169 derived its degree days, but am
waiting for confirmation lest I misspeak.<br>
<br>
In the meanwhile, I would also recommend using the climate zone
shown in 90.1 to set the reference building, but only because that's
what listed, not because it's technically better.<br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
<pre cols="90">Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
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</pre><div><div>
<div>On 2/3/2016 6:43 AM, Jim Dirkes wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(180,95,6);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Francesco,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(180,95,6);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">As
I recall, the E+ weather files derive the climate zone based
on various attributes of the weather data. In fact, I think
there is a qualifying statement within the .EPW files which
says the climate zone may not be "perfect"</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(180,95,6);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">For
that reason, I would use the climate zone referenced in 90.1</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 9:15 AM,
Francesco Passerini <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fpasserini.tn@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:fpasserini.tn@gmail.com" target="_blank">fpasserini.tn@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div dir="ltr">In order to understand what thermal
transmittances I shall impose in a baseline model for
LEED, I have to understand in what climate zone I shall
consider Rome.
<div>In TABLE B-3 "International Climate Zones" of ASHRAE
90.1-2010, "Roma/Fiumicion" is zone 4, while in the
weather file zone 3C is indicated.</div>
<div>The weather file for Fiumicino is available here:</div>
<div> <a href="https://energyplus.net/weather-location/europe_wmo_region_6/ITA//ITA_Roma-Fiumicino.162420_IGDG" target="_blank">https://energyplus.net/weather-location/europe_wmo_region_6/ITA//ITA_Roma-Fiumicino.162420_IGDG</a><br>
</div>
<div>If you see the .stat file, HDD18°C = 1514, which
respects the thermal criteria for zone 3C (see Table
B-4).</div>
<div>Is TABLE B-3 based on other weather data?</div>
<div>Best Regards</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div>Francesco</div>
</font></span></div>
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<p><span style="color:black;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"></span></p>
James V Dirkes
II, PE, BEMP,
LEED AP<br>
CEO/President<br>
The Building
Performance
Team Inc.<br>
1631 Acacia
Dr, GR, Mi
49504<br>
<br>
Direct:
<a href="tel:616.450.8653" target="_blank" value="+16164508653">616.450.8653</a><br>
<a href="mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">jim@buildingperformanceteam.com</a><br>
<br>
<a href="http://buildingperformanceteamcom" target="_blank">Website </a>l
<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a>
<p align="center" style="text-align:center;margin-bottom:0pt"><b><i><span> </span></i></b><span></span></p>
<p style="vertical-align:middle">
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 6pt; -ms-text-autospace:;"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><font size="4">Fail
faster!</font></span><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p><span style="color:black;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"></span></p>James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP<br>CEO/President<br>The Building Performance Team Inc.<br>1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504<br><br>Direct: <a href="tel:616.450.8653" target="_blank" value="+16164508653">616.450.8653</a><br><a href="mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">jim@buildingperformanceteam.com</a><br><br><a href="http://buildingperformanceteamcom" target="_blank">Website </a>l <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a><p align="center" style="text-align:center;margin-bottom:0pt"><b><i><span style="line-height:115%;font-family:"MS Reference Sans Serif","sans-serif";font-size:14pt"> </span></i></b><span style="font-family:"MS Reference Sans Serif","sans-serif""></span></p><p style="vertical-align:middle">
</p><p style="margin-bottom: 6pt; -ms-text-autospace:;"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><font size="4">Fail
faster!</font></span><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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