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--></style></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">My strongest advice: Good reviewers do not consider themselves “un-convincible” but some effectively are when your own time/ability constraints come into play. Weigh your interactions so far with this individual, and decide if you are better off “biting the bullet” and just doing what’s been asked, as in such a case any discussions on this list won’t change your situation and will only lose you time.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">That said…</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">I expect your simplification to one block per unit is *<b>probably</b>* appropriate, based on my general experience with multifamily projects of varying types. I’m the sort of personality that tends to err on the side of “too much detail,” and I have constructed residential simulations similar to what your reviewer is prescribing to find the added complexity did not ultimately contribute to my confidence in the results. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">Your reviewer is not incorrect however to point out that the actual design, in reality, does have multiple thermostats and in a literal sense has more than one zone per apartment unit. Your reviewer and your project are in a grey area. Take note Sections 7 and 9 are not mutually exclusive: Section 9 prescribes “at least” one zone per multifamily unit in the same sentence that allows for combining all units with a common perimeter orientation to be combined. I wish I could tell you 90.1 is clear as day on this front and that Section 9 “trumps” Section 7 for multifamily, but I don’t think I can make that case for a reviewer who is convinced otherwise.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">Whether the reviewer is “right” or “reasonable” to suggest you break apart the zones and distinguish the occupancy schedules (independent of what 90.1 says) is too context-dependent a question for anyone to answer absolutely over this mailing list (and is ultimately a subjective question anyway), though Julien is asking the right questions to provide an informed opinion. That you have a multi-zone arrangement in the actual design suggests somebody felt it would at least improve comfort (not necessarily save energy), which in turn suggests you’ve some expected substantial variance in perimeter vs. core loads, <i>possibly</i> internal loads as well. Whether such skin load variances and/or occupant-borne heat scheduling should have a meaningful impact on system energy consumption is going to depend on the system(s) itself, the occupant density we’re talking about, and perhaps especially just how easily heat propagates between the zones (which drives questions like “how big ARE these apartments?”).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">Assuming the reviewer’s directives would take much more time for the full project and you still have a degree of uncertainty yourself, I’d suggest performing a ‘sensitivity study’ on a single apartment unit for your own benefit (and perhaps to ultimately present to the reviewer). Run the simulation once as you have approximated the combining the actual zones/systems, then again with the prescribed level of detail to match actual zoning, as though you were following the guidance in Table G3.1 section 7. You can still freely combine zones with common “living” vs. “sleeping” designations, as requested. Ensure you have realistic degrees of inter-zonal thermal transfer for that case. Also be aware this is a “rabbit hole” problem that can easily be overdone and unnecessarily eat up your time – so don’t feel obligated to go the sidewalk’s edge. Just test the degree of detail requested by the reviewer and no more.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">Critique the results for each run, consider/approximate the “scaled up” impact of the difference in results for the project as a whole, and see if you can demonstrate/convince yourself that ultimately this is not a big deal by quantifying the potential swing in the overall numbers. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">If this is something you feel motivated to try, I would advise first starting a fresh conversation with your reviewer to propose this sensitivity study/exercise (provide context: explain the time-commitments involved). If you sense they are not going to accept anything more than the detail prescribed for the full simulation effort, consider it time saved and just “bite the bullet” per my initial advice!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">Regards,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><br></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Owner</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> 306 N Ferrel</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> Olathe, KS 66061</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> office: 785.410.3317</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"><a href="www.catonenergy.com"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Julien Marrec<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 26, 2015 2:25 AM<br><b>To:</b> Sherif Farag<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Thermal Blocks in Multifamily Residential Buildings</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Sherif,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Is it a local incentive program or your national energy code or something?</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I don't know quite yet how to convince this person, but if you could give us a few pointers about your project it may help.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Can you describe the HVAC system very briefly? What's your heating and cooling system and how is it controlled? And do the residents have fully manual control over the temperature? Do the residents pay for the utility bills?</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Also, how big are your apartments?</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Julien<br><br>Envoyé de mon iPhone</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>Le 26 oct. 2015 à 07:31, Sherif Farag <<a href="mailto:sherif.sabr@gmail.com">sherif.sabr@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :</p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Julien,</p><div><p class="MsoNormal">No, it is not a LEED project;</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I tried to convince the assessor but with no success, any advice? basically he doesn’t agree with my interoperation and wants to see a clear document.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">appreciate your help.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks & Regards; </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Sherif</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 26, 2015, at 2:06 AM, Julien Marrec <<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Is this a LEED project?</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Long story short, no I don't think this is a reasonable comment.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">One block per apartment is common practice, and you can merge block if their share a similar orientation.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Julien<br><br>Envoyé de mon iPhone</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>Le 25 oct. 2015 à 13:01, Sherif Farag <<a href="mailto:sherif.sabr@gmail.com">sherif.sabr@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :</p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">Dear Modellers;</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">I am modelled a multifamily residential building with thermal blocks following ASHRAE 90.1:2007 Table G3.1 <u>item 9</u>. but I received a comment from the reviewer asking me to follow Table G3.1 <u>item 7a</u> and justified the comment because the living areas and bedroom areas having different occupancy profiles, he also suggested that (to simplify the profiles) the occupants are in the living space from 1800hrs to 2400hrs and in the bedroom spaces 0000hrs to 0800hrs.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">Is this a reasonable comment?</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">Did anybody here had a similar experience?</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">I will appreciate your feedback & recommendations.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">Thanks & Regards; </span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif"> </span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="SafeHtmlFilter__MailAutoSig"><b><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">Sherif Farag</span></b></a><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">Sustainability Consultant</span></b><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">P.O. Box: 127842</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">Abu Dhabi, UAE</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"HelveticaNeue",serif">M: +971 55 199 0022 | E: <a href="mailto:sherif.sabr@gmail.com" target="_blank">sherif.sabr@gmail.com</a> | Skype ID: sherif.farag9</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>Bldg-sim mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></p></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>