<div dir="ltr">I agree with both of you. I guess my argument was that since these below grade conditioned spaces would be served by separate HVAC system anyway, then they match the intention of the G.3.1.1.b. But I agree this is grey area. <div>Good news is, this is early energy modelling to drive design, so it is Baseline definition that will determine proposed HVAC system. First proposal was an air cooled VRF system, which in my experience against baseline 8, will have difficulties (or be costly) achieving the substantial targeted savings (34% again 90.1-2007 App. G). This would be more achievable against a system 6.</div><div> <div><div>Anyway, thanks for the insights!<div><br></div><div>Santiago.</div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 2 July 2015 at 19:23, Nicholas Caton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ncaton@catonenergy.com" target="_blank">ncaton@catonenergy.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">I would also go with 8, for simplicity. You pretty clearly have 6 levels with conditioned spaces. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">Even if you do go through the effort to declare each underground level conditioned space as subject to G3.1.1 exceptions, that doesn’t reduce the quantity of floors with conditioned spaces for the whole project.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">That said, this is one of those situations where I’d subjectively agree it’s within the realm of reasonable interpretation to pursue the direction you’ve described with System type 6. I might be more motivated to make that case if packaged DX systems per-floor are a closer approximation to the actual design equipment than a chiller plant. I suspect it may ultimately be more effort than it’s worth however.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><br></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Owner</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> 1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br> office: 785.410.3317</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"><a href="http://www.catonenergy.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Javed Iqbal<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 02, 2015 2:55 PM<br><b>To:</b> Santiago Velez<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] 90.1 Ap. G System selection: 5 stories + Underground - System 6 or 8?</span></p><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394">In my opinion the <i>system type 8</i> would be applicable. As the <i>total conditioned area </i>is not explicitly mentioned so i presume it is more than 150,000 sqft (above grade floor+basement floor areas).</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394">Here are couple of reason which i could think of:</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394"> </span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394">i) per G3.1.1, HVAC systems in the baseline building design shall be based on usage, number of floors, conditioned floor area, and heating source as specified in Table G3.1.1A and shall conform with the system descriptions in Table G3.1.1B. </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394">ii) per Table G3.1.1A, system 8 would be applicable if either of the condition is met number of floors OR conditioned area OR both</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394">iii) exception G3.1.1a would be applicable once you are decided with the <i>predominant system type</i> based on number of floors or conditioned area OR both per section G3.1.1. I strongly feel that exceptions are applicable only when the modeling scenario can not be addressed by the main sections which in your case is G3.1.1. </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394">Hope this helps!</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span></p></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Santiago Velez <<a href="mailto:santiagogvelez@gmail.com" target="_blank">santiagogvelez@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">What is in your opinion the baseline for the following building:</span><span style="color:#333333"></span></p><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Floor area:12,000 sqm (130,000 sqft)<br>Floors: 5 above grade, mostly conditioned. 5 underground parking, mostly unconditioned apart from some conditioned spaces in the first below grade floor.</span><span style="color:#333333"></span></p><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Predominant Use: Office (85% of sqft),<br>Secondary use: bank in PB and below grade; Kitchen, below grade; control security room, below grade.</span><span style="color:#333333"></span></p><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">I'm in between baseline 6 or 8. If conditioned spaces below grade fall under exceptions to G3.1.1 b. then can I consider for the baseline that the predominant building has 5 floors instead of 6?</span><span style="color:#333333"></span></p><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Thanks in advance.</span><span style="color:#333333"></span></p><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">Santiago.</span><span style="color:#333333"></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bldg-sim mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal">-- </p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></i></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0b5394">Javed Iqbal, LEED AP, CEA<br>Sr. Energy Analyst</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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