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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I’d like to add that although 90.1 Appendix G includes scope language as pointed out by several board members, that its purpose is “to make an apples-to-apples
comparison for rating” it doesn’t mean that the model couldn’t also reflect the expected energy use of the building subject to some of the major assumptions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">That Appendix G scope statement shouldn’t be a “get out of jail free” card. I don’t think people on this list mean it that way, but I can imagine some confusion
if an owner uses Google to search for “accuracy of building energy models using 90.1 Appendix G” and this thread comes up.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The NBI chart in my opinion is provocative and out of date with current industry practices and standards – some of the buildings use double the energy of the
baseline building! How could this happen? There must have been some significant variances between the modeled equipment and what was actually constructed, and the building may be operating much differently than the original assumptions – 200% energy use doesn’t
happen from faulty zoning, slightly incorrect setpoints, default equipment curves, 0.5 W/sf plug load equipment when it was actually 0.75 W/sf, etc. There must be major equipment variances, process loads, and/or extended operating hours.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I look forward to an updated study in this regard based on current modeling practices, USGBC’s review process which has evolved since that study was published,
availability of Appendix G as a resource as opposed to using ECB which is designed for pass/fail analysis, and USGBC collecting data from buildings going forward…hopefully this study is in the works.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I’ll suggest that our message to those retaining consultants for modeling services should be:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The 90.1 comparison for LEED or Green Globes has some constraints in order to make it a model to model comparison across many buildings that are submitted.
Appendix G doesn’t have a primary intention of predicting actual energy use. Energy efficiency investments made to the building based on modeled energy savings are likely to remain valid (or perform even better in terms of payback) if actual energy use comes
in higher than the 90.1 model…if the systems are verified to be operating properly, and the extra energy use may be coming from higher plug loads and operating hours.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Yes the models can provide a predictive estimate of energy use, but the level of coordination between the owner, design team, contractor, and modeler
requires extra effort from all parties. An experienced modeler will have a higher probability of asking the right questions from these parties to close the gap between modeled and actual energy use. The energy model is not able to account for changes that
take place after the fact unless information is exchanged and the modeler’s scope includes updating the model at that point. This should be emphasized for any core and shell buildings, and any building that will have high EUI tenants that aren’t known at the
time of the energy model’s creation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In order to verify the cumulative performance of ECMs or investigate higher than expected energy use, an M&V process is recommended after the building
is occupied in order to refine the model to correct for building occupancy factors, especially plug loads and operating hours, as well as actual weather. Comparing a pre-occupancy energy model to post-occupancy energy use data includes bias errors that need
to be addressed through a calibrated energy model. The calibrated model may (will) provide different results than what was submitted to LEED or Green Globes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This discussion also hinges on what someone considers to be “close” – is that within 5%, 10%, or 25%? An expectation needs to be set before the project.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If anyone wants to propose some ASHRAE research to provide better plug load and operating schedule data, let me know! TC 7.6 research subcommittee (among others)
wants your input…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David S. Eldridge, Jr.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">, P</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">E</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">,
LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Associate</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:4.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#365F91">Direct: (847) 316-92</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">24</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#365F91">
| Mobile: (</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">773</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#365F91">)
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">490</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#365F91">-</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">5038</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:gray">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alfonso Hernandez<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Karpman; 'Brooks, Alamelu'; 'Jim Dirkes'; 'Nathan Kegel'; Jacob Dunn<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Comparing ASHRAE 90.1 App G Models to Real Buildings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Jacob et al:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Some more points to the mix:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">1) Increased infiltration/exfiltration due to seasonal changes in wind patterns, which mostly affect high-rises, is not modeled very often. The changing nature of
wind (more or less cold or hot wind coming from a given direction) will affect cooling and heating loads.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">2) Not every software can model the thermal mass of concrete or brick.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">3) Microclimatic conditions (the urban overshadowing Jacob was mentioning) have to do also with air movement (urban canyon effect), and are not modeled often.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">4) Buildings with Occupancy/Vacancy sensors are usually not modeled with accuracy. App G just gives a 10% LPD reduction when using them (in theory you could model
them if you know the exact patterns of occupancy before construction, which never happens).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">5) Daylight Harvesting and Electrochromic glass are too dynamic systems to be modeled accurately (unpredictable occupancy again).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">However, I do agree with Prof. Reinhart about calibrating design models with as much real time data as possible. That way we could recreate other scenarios (climate
change, systems decay, the impact of a change of occupancy, etc.). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="ES-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Alfonso E. Hernandez, LEED AP</span></b><span lang="ES-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:red">Kirksey</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:red"> |</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> Architecture</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [</span><a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Karpman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2015 9:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Brooks, Alamelu'; 'Jim Dirkes'; 'Nathan Kegel'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Comparing ASHRAE 90.1 App G Models to Real Buildings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There is a section in Appendix G (G1.2) addressing this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Neither the
<i>proposed building performance </i>nor the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">baseline building performance
</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">are predictions of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">actual
<i>energy </i>consumption or costs for the <i>proposed<o:p></o:p></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">design
</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">after <i>construction</i>. Actual experience will differ<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">from these calculations due to variations such as occupancy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">building operation and maintenance, weather,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">energy
</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">use not covered by this procedure, changes in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">energy
</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">rates between design of the building and occupancy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">and the precision of the calculation tool.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">You may also want to check out articles on building labeling systems that discuss differences between asset (theoretical, modeling-based) and operational (based
on actual utility bills) ratings, such as the one attached (see p.4-6). Both have value as long as they are interpreted correctly. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Maria<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#666666">Maria Karpman
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#666666">LEED AP, BEMP, CEM</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#666666">________________</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#666666">Karpman Consulting<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.karpmanconsulting.net/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">www.karpmanconsulting.net</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#666666">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#666666">Phone </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#666666;background:white">860.430.1909 </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#666666">41C New London Turnpike</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#666666">Glastonbury, CT 06033</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [</span><a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Brooks, Alamelu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jim Dirkes; Nathan Kegel<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Comparing ASHRAE 90.1 App G Models to Real Buildings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I believe Appendix G is not meant to measure the performance of the existing building. ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix G Technical Committee is the right source to answer
this question. They can clarify the intention of the APP G modeling methodology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Alamelu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Alamelu Brooks LEED AP (BD+C), HBDP, BEAP, EIT| Senior Associate | +1.443.718.4881 direct |
</span><a href="mailto:Alamelu.Brooks@icfi.com">Alamelu.Brooks@icfi.com</a><span style="color:#1F497D"> | icfi.com
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">ICF INTERNATIONAL | 7125 Thomas Edison Drive, Suite 100, Columbia, MD 21046 USA
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:2.25pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:2.25pt;margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Connect with us on
</span><a href="http://www.icfi.com/social"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">social media</span></a><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [</span><a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Dirkes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nathan Kegel<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Comparing ASHRAE 90.1 App G Models to Real Buildings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;color:#B45F06">I agree fully with all of the above comments and would like to add these:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5">
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:#B45F06">Even buildings that are commissioned properly will see their performance erode over time. There are hundreds of reason for this, ranging from poor maintenance to well-intentioned maintenance people not having time
to monitor operations well. There is NO BUILDING that operates well for long.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5">
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:#B45F06">Buildings often see changes in operation, occupancy and schedule. These are oftimes gradual changes over a period of years, but can be substantial</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Nathan Kegel <<a href="mailto:nathan.kegel@iesve.com" target="_blank">nathan.kegel@iesve.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Climate files used in the simulations versus the actual weather.</span><a name="14d76db336d12194__MailEndCompose"></a><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I’m in the midst of a project that shows a variance in EUI of up to 200% just by changing
the climate file for the DOE primary school. Full results to be presented in September.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Add in all the other factors already mentioned, and if your 90.1 model comes anywhere
close the real buildings’ it’s far more likely that the 90.1 model was extremely “lucky” than it is that the model used accurate assumptions.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Nathan</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<thead>
<tr>
<td valign="top" style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="http://www.iesve.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#305C67;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="61" height="61" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D093B9.2A0AFB60" alt="cid:image001.png@01D093B9.2A0AFB60"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#305C67">Nathan Kegel</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#305C67"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#305C67">Business Development Manager</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#305C67">O:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#305C67">
</span><a href="tel:763.276.9981" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">763.276.9981</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#305C67">M:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria-Lida Kou<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2015 9:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jacob Dunn<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Comparing ASHRAE 90.1 App G Models to Real Buildings</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Jacob,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Happy to hear that other people are thinking the same. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">I was into this subject on my own thoughts recently.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">I would like to add in your list: Occupants' behavior actually which is not in the stage to be included into the prediction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">I would add commissioning as well along with controls simulation and controls operation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Apologies because I haven't worked with LEED projects but I think the above applied in general to "the performance gap".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Really looking forward to hearing more about this subject as I am not that experienced engineer yet, but really interested in "the performance" side of buildings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Maria-Lida Kounadi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">2015-05-21 15:04 GMT+01:00 Jacob Dunn <</span><a href="mailto:jdunn@eskewdumezripple.com" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB">jdunn@eskewdumezripple.com</span></a><span lang="EN-GB">>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Bldg-Sim Community –
<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I’m trying to compile a list of why it might be inappropriate to compare Appendix G models to actual consumption data. This comes about because I recently got into a debate with
one of my co-workers when looking at the infamous NBI chart/study that shows little correlation to predicted and actual energy values of LEED buildings. I was trying to explain that the Appendix G model’s intent is NOT to be compared to actual consumption,
as it is a modeling protocol aimed at creating consistent relative comparisons for LEED points.
<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Here are the reasons thus far that support this notion (that App G models shouldn’t be compared to actual data). Does anyone know of any resources out there that expand upon this?
Or can you think other reasons?<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Appendix G does not take into account external shading, which can be critical in urban environments for accurate energy predictions<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Schedules are typically not created with the intent of being predictive. Overall building hours are adhered to, but detailed schedule creation is not usually in the scope of a LEED model (or is it, in your
experience?). For instance, typical plug load base values during unoccupied times are .3, this is a pretty big assumption.<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>The App G model uses a TMY weather file, which can vary from the current weather year (I wonder on average by how much?)<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Infiltration values are assumed, unless blower door testing has been done (which is rare for commercial buildings).<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Thermostat values are modeled as consistent across the building, which is rarely the case in an actual operating building<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Any additional insight is much appreciated!<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7D7773;letter-spacing:.3pt">Jacob Dunn LEED AP BD+C</span></b><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#A9AA23;letter-spacing:.3pt">ESKEW+DUMEZ+RIPPLE, APC</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;letter-spacing:.3pt">
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:110%">
<span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:110%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7D7773;letter-spacing:.3pt">2014 AIA National Architecture Firm Award</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7D7773;letter-spacing:.3pt">365 Canal Street Suite 3150
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="http://www.eskewdumezripple.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7D7773;letter-spacing:.3pt">eskewdumezripple.com</span></a><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP<br>
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The Building Performance Team Inc.<br>
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Direct: 616.450.8653<br>
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<p style="margin-top:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:blue;background:white">The truth is still the truth, even if nobody believes it. A lie is still a lie, even if
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