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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I believe Appendix G is not meant to measure the performance of the existing building. ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix G Technical Committee is the right source to answer
this question. They can clarify the intention of the APP G modeling methodology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Alamelu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Alamelu Brooks LEED AP (BD+C), HBDP, BEAP, EIT| Senior Associate | +1.443.718.4881 direct | Alamelu.Brooks@icfi.com | icfi.com
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">ICF INTERNATIONAL | 7125 Thomas Edison Drive, Suite 100, Columbia, MD 21046 USA
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:2.25pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:2.25pt;margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Connect with us on
<a href="http://www.icfi.com/social">social media</a>.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Dirkes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nathan Kegel<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Comparing ASHRAE 90.1 App G Models to Real Buildings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;color:#B45F06">I agree fully with all of the above comments and would like to add these:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:#B45F06">Even buildings that are commissioned properly will see their performance erode over time. There are hundreds of reason for this, ranging from poor maintenance to well-intentioned maintenance people not having time
to monitor operations well. There is NO BUILDING that operates well for long.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:#B45F06">Buildings often see changes in operation, occupancy and schedule. These are oftimes gradual changes over a period of years, but can be substantial</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Nathan Kegel <<a href="mailto:nathan.kegel@iesve.com" target="_blank">nathan.kegel@iesve.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="14d76db336d12194__MailEndCompose"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Climate files used in the simulations versus
the actual weather.</span></a><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m in the midst of a project that shows a variance in EUI of up to 200% just by changing
the climate file for the DOE primary school. Full results to be presented in September.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Add in all the other factors already mentioned, and if your 90.1 model comes anywhere
close the real buildings’ it’s far more likely that the 90.1 model was extremely “lucky” than it is that the model used accurate assumptions.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Nathan</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="http://www.iesve.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="61" height="61" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.png@01D093B2.9D6ECB10"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67">Nathan Kegel</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67">Business Development Manager</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67">O:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67">
<a href="tel:763.276.9981" target="_blank">763.276.9981</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67">M:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<a href="tel:415.420.9314" target="_blank">415.420.9314</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="http://www.iesve.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67">http://www.iesve.com</span></a><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#305C67">Integrated Environmental Solutions Limited. Registered in Scotland No. SC151456<br>
Registered Office - Helix Building, West Of Scotland Science Park, Glasgow G20 0SP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Bldg-sim [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria-Lida Kou<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2015 9:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jacob Dunn<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Comparing ASHRAE 90.1 App G Models to Real Buildings</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Jacob,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Happy to hear that other people are thinking the same. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">I was into this subject on my own thoughts recently.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">I would like to add in your list: Occupants' behavior actually which is not in the stage to be included into the prediction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">I would add commissioning as well along with controls simulation and controls operation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Apologies because I haven't worked with LEED projects but I think the above applied in general to "the performance gap".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Really looking forward to hearing more about this subject as I am not that experienced engineer yet, but really interested in "the performance" side of buildings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Maria-Lida Kounadi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">2015-05-21 15:04 GMT+01:00 Jacob Dunn <<a href="mailto:jdunn@eskewdumezripple.com" target="_blank">jdunn@eskewdumezripple.com</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Bldg-Sim Community –
<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I’m trying to compile a list of why it might be inappropriate to compare Appendix G models to actual consumption data. This comes about because I recently got into a debate with
one of my co-workers when looking at the infamous NBI chart/study that shows little correlation to predicted and actual energy values of LEED buildings. I was trying to explain that the Appendix G model’s intent is NOT to be compared to actual consumption,
as it is a modeling protocol aimed at creating consistent relative comparisons for LEED points.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Here are the reasons thus far that support this notion (that App G models shouldn’t be compared to actual data). Does anyone know of any resources out there that expand upon this?
Or can you think other reasons?<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Appendix G does not take into account external shading, which can be critical in urban environments for accurate energy predictions<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Schedules are typically not created with the intent of being predictive. Overall building hours are adhered to, but detailed schedule creation is not usually in the scope of a LEED model (or is it, in your
experience?). For instance, typical plug load base values during unoccupied times are .3, this is a pretty big assumption.<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>The App G model uses a TMY weather file, which can vary from the current weather year (I wonder on average by how much?)<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Infiltration values are assumed, unless blower door testing has been done (which is rare for commercial buildings).<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>-<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Thermostat values are modeled as consistent across the building, which is rarely the case in an actual operating building<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Any additional insight is much appreciated!<span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7D7773;letter-spacing:.3pt">Jacob Dunn LEED AP BD+C</span></b><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:110%;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7D7773;letter-spacing:.3pt">2014 AIA National Architecture Firm Award</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#7D7773;letter-spacing:.3pt"><a href="http://www.eskewdumezripple.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#7D7773">eskewdumezripple.com</span></a></span></u><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP<br>
CEO/President<br>
The Building Performance Team Inc.<br>
1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504<br>
<br>
Direct: 616.450.8653<br>
<a href="mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">jim@buildingperformanceteam.com</a><br>
<br>
<a href="http://buildingperformanceteamcom" target="_blank">Website </a>l <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-top:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue;background:white">The truth is still the truth, even if nobody believes it. A lie is still a lie, even if
<i>everyone</i> believes it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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