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--></style></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Chris!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I generally draw a line where a fan is involved with space conditioning. If we’re talking about restroom fans operating independently from the air handlers, I’d be comfy calling that “process,” but if we’re talking about a kitchen’s MAU or heat recovery exhaust fans, that wouldn’t get copied over to the baseline.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Pfan definitely is supposed to incorporate all fans associated with the baseline system. No questions there. This line is probably informed in part where GBCI has made it clear garage ventilation is an example of a process load. The “space conditioning” litmus is how I reconcile that example with the Pfan rules.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">To date, I’ve not had issue with this approach in term of LEED review, and I’m quite clear in documenting these distinctions. As always however, YMMV! </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Chris separately okayed me sending this reply to the list, by the way.]</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><br></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Owner</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> 1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br> office: 785.410.3317</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"><a href="www.catonenergy.com"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Jones, Christopher [<a href="mailto:cjones@halsall.com">mailto:cjones@halsall.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 20, 2015 4:59 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1G Exhaust Fan modeling problems</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Book",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hello Nick,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Book",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I am wondering about your approach to treat exhaust fans as “process”. I thought the System Fan power was to be calculated including all supply, return, exhaust and relief fans on the system. I have been interpreting that (G3.1.2.9.2) to mean that washroom, storage room, and other exhaust fans receiving make-up air from the System are included in the fan power calculation for that System. If the Proposed design fan power is greater than the allowance, then I reduce all the fans (including the exhaust fans) in the Baseline model proportionally. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Book",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1c467a">Christopher Jones</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1c467a">,</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">P.Eng.</span><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> <br></span></i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Tel: 416.644.4226 • Toll Free: 1.888.425.7255 x 527</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Book",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Caton<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 20, 2015 7:20 AM<br><b>To:</b> Rathna Shree; Volkan Ozdemir; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1G Exhaust Fan modeling problems</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">A few thoughts:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Distributing power between baseline fans in proportion to the proposed should probably reference proposed fan powers, not flows</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">If you are going to have your exhaust fan operate on VSD and track the supply, then intuitively the only VSD fan curve provided by 90.1 is as cited under 3.1.3.15, and I would use the same for each system fan. I should think you could also logically specify a distinct system exhaust operation/flow schedule citing & matching the proposed design.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">A general caution on “gaming” the system: There are a myriad of subtle, clever, and diabolical ways one could subvert the intent/purpose of Appendix G and its ilk… but then what’s the point? Bruce Lee comes to mind: “Obey the principles without being bound by them.” It’s never a good feeling to look back on a bunch of hours you’ve invested developing a simulation that doesn’t really represent anything.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">#2: I think you are trying to read new meanings into G3.1.2.9.1…? Generally for LEED projects, I routinely handle garage ventilation, local/centralized restroom exhaust, and similar standalone ventilation systems operating independently of space conditioning systems as “process” ventilation (indicating the associated energy consumptions as such on the EAp2 template). Essentially those exhaust/ventilation systems are defined in the proposed model as actually occurring, then the baseline model is made to match the proposed case. I’ll often include additional sub-metering (eQuest) so that I can further demonstrate/document the claim they’ve been made to match at submission. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hope that helps!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><br></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Owner</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> 1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br> office: 785.410.3317</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"><a href="www.catonenergy.com"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Rathna Shree<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 20, 2015 12:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> Volkan Ozdemir; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1G Exhaust Fan modeling problems</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432105208126_12658"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Hi Volkan,</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432105208126_12658"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432105208126_12658"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">I can answer your second question. Exhaust fans in unconditioned zones should be modeled identical in base and proposed case.</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432105208126_12658"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432105208126_12658"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Regards,</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1432105208126_12658"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Rathnashree</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">On Monday, 18 May 2015 6:22 PM, Volkan Ozdemir <<a href="mailto:Volkan.Ozdemir@rencons.com">Volkan.Ozdemir@rencons.com</a>> wrote:</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p><div><div id="yiv8242759190"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Dear All,</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">I got two questions about exhaust fan modeling according to ASHRAE 90.1G-2010, clarifications from experience people would be great;</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">1-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Proposed system has an exhaust fan, hence I`ll model exhaust fan for 7. VAV with Reheat system as well.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">G3.1.2.9.1 says that I should model exhaust fan size as 90% of supply fan. Fair enough, peak flow rate from exhaust will be 90% of VAV peak supply, so there is positive pressure in baseline design zones. </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Further, G3.1.2.10.1 says that peak fan power should be split between supply and exhaust in the same proportion as proposed design. For example, my proposed design got 1000 CFM for supply and 1000 CFM for exhaust, so I`ll split “Peak Fan Power Consumption” 50% on baseline design as well.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Finally I`ll model VAV <b>Supply</b> Fan curve as mentioned in G3.1.3.15.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">However, here is my real question: What about efficiency curve of the exhaust fan? Appendix G doesn`t say anything about this issue. It only says that (G3.1.2.1) efficiency of HVAC equipment should be modeled as minimum as shown on section 6.4. Section 6.4 doesn`t say anything about Exhaust Fans.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">So that means I can arrange efficiency curve of the exhaust fan in baseline however I want? This kinda opens up the possibility of gaming the system, one can see where exhaust fan will usually work and set the efficiency very low at that point of the curve, hence higher kWh consumption for the baseline system.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Could someone experience clarify what should be the efficiency curve of Exhaust Fans according to ASHRAE 90.1G 2010 edition?</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">2-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> As far as I understood, ASHRAE 90.1G says that exhaust fans shouldn`t be modeled for spaces where no supply fan exists. Or better put, if HVAC system serving the zone has no supply fan, then you cannot model exhaust fan.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">This seems extremely unfair for large scale projects where garage exhaust fans, toilet exhaust fans are considerably large.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Has any of you tried to model garage and toilet fans in your baseline model and pass through LEED review? What is the best way to follow if your proposed system got garage exhaust and toilet exhaust fans? I really want to model those in baseline as well because it will affect my energy efficiency rating.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Kind regards,</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="311" style="width:233.05pt"><tr><td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#58595b">Ismail Volkan Ozdemir</span></b> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#58595b">Mechanical Engineer, LEED AP BD+C</span></i></p></div></td></tr></table><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray"><br>The information contained in this e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential.<br>It must not be disclosed to any person without written authority of Renaissance Construction Ltd.<br>If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it from your system immediately<br><br><a href="http://www.rencons.com">www.rencons.com</a></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bldg-sim mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray"><br>You are receiving this communication because you are listed as a current Parsons Brinckerhoff Halsall Inc. contact. 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