<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Century Schoolbook";
panose-1:2 4 6 4 5 5 5 2 3 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:2029524259;
mso-list-template-ids:357623272;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:1.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:1.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:2.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:2.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:3.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:3.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:4.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:4.5in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Interesting idea!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Whatever simulation package you choose to leverage, I think you may anticipate blazing a new trail to some extent. I am unaware of any purpose-built tools for simulating the specific task at hand. If anyone <u>would</u> know of such tools, it might be the R&D departments for manufacturers pushing such combination systems (Toshiba/Mitsubishi/others?). If time is on your side, sending a query up the manufacturer chain might be worth your while.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">At present, if you should opt to utilize eQuest/DOE2 for your study, VRF with heat recovery function (“free heating/cooling” via zonal transfer) can be <u>approximated</u> via post-processing of the hourly outputs. Having tread this path a number of times for different building types and having studied various published/unpublished guidance for such procedures (one can source such guidance in attachments within the [equest-users] archives), what you’re considering exploring with DHW could be relatively simply layered into the post-processing efforts with a small set of extra assumptions (and a fair effort to accurately schedule/quantify DHW loads within the simulation). I’d want to get all the cutsheets in front of me and to have the equipment rep(s) for the basis of design at-hand to ensure appropriate safety factors and assumptions of system behavior are addressed at the outset of the study.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Agnostic to your simulation package preferences/decision: Thinking out loud and considering how the potential for savings may inverse with the season, especially for a climate like KS where the seasonal swings are sustained and pronounced, it would be worthwhile to establish whether the SHW/VRF systems might be “de-coupled” on a simple-seasonal or monitored basis in a cost-effective / low-maintenance / buildable fashion. If feasible, I would plan to include quantifying the associated annual savings potential for a simple ROI check with your results. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Let us know how it goes!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><br></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Owner</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> 1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br> office: 785.410.3317</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"><a href="www.catonenergy.com"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Dirkes<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 07, 2015 12:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> Hollon, Ben<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Domestic Hot Water Heaters With VRF</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;color:#b45f06">I haven't done this yet, but.....</span></p></div><div><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#b45f06"><span style="font-size:18.0pt">The VRF object in EnergyPlus allows a water-cooled condenser. I suspect you could connect that water loop to a water heater without difficulty and adjust the water loop pump power to zero, etc. The E+ water heater allows two energy sources (water and gas, for example) so when winter rolls around, the gas can take over ... or something like that.</span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#b45f06"><span style="font-size:18.0pt">I have modeled VRF (prior to E+ having the capability) as a water-source heat pump system. The condenser loop could pass through a water heater or heat exchanger and accomplish your goal. (If you use this approach, the heat pump COP must be very high so compressor power is ~zero. The condenser loop chiller / heater must have efficiency curves that are similar to the VRF system)</span></li></ul></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Hollon, Ben <<a href="mailto:bhollon@antella-inc.com" target="_blank">bhollon@antella-inc.com</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi,</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Has anyone ever had any experience with modeling a VRF system with individual hot water heaters tied into the refrigerant loop?</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">We are debating in the office how this would be handled by an energy modeling program. In the summer you could produce almost free hot water and reduce the condensing unit load. But in the winter you would either need greatly oversized condensing units or auxiliary heat. I'm not aware of this level of functionality in an energy modeling program with domestic hot water heating. We are thinking you would need to perform some amount of calculations by hand with outputs from an energy model...</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Also, has anyone had any positive or negative experiences with this in terms of performance and operations?</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks!<br clear="all"></p><div><div><div><p><a href="https://ee70db1b-a-1347254f-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/antella-inc.com/cadstandards/other/Ant-Logo.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7crK3WoX4hU441SAa703fENBeWmmomx2fSEwMugePrx8z8UbHuYup2eh-hLOT4cCifwEfw-EWAzIKfrb50zUwHPiF0KXB-3KyY35c4CKX9033i50232S12FIWzuqbYM-NB1gCHyMd3lWot8TXxqNnFX24oedBXR2aqSvsFkMhpuy3RH-Ue-69vX4glR7HBtQScw8X_R1KwOLH0bh-eu-g2MF1uuWJ-jeHWzdoOweXgOBm4HdSN4%3D&attredirects=0" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="96" height="32" id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://ee70db1b-a-1347254f-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/antella-inc.com/cadstandards/other/Ant-Logo.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7crK3WoX4hU441SAa703fENBeWmmomx2fSEwMugePrx8z8UbHuYup2eh-hLOT4cCifwEfw-EWAzIKfrb50zUwHPiF0KXB-3KyY35c4CKX9033i50232S12FIWzuqbYM-NB1gCHyMd3lWot8TXxqNnFX24oedBXR2aqSvsFkMhpuy3RH-Ue-69vX4glR7HBtQScw8X_R1KwOLH0bh-eu-g2MF1uuWJ-jeHWzdoOweXgOBm4HdSN4%3D&attredirects=0"></span></a></p><p><b><span style="font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black">Ben Hollon, EIT, LEED</span></b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#002060">®</span><b><span style="font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black"> AP BD+C, MBA</span></b></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black">email: bhollon</span><a href="mailto:xxxxxx@antella-inc.com" target="_blank">@antella-inc.com</a></p><p> </p></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p> </p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#c00000;background:white">Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.</span></p><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black">1600 Genessee, Suite 260</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:maroon">•</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black">Kansas City, MO 64102</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:maroon">•</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black">Tele: <a href="tel:%28816%29%20421-0950" target="_blank">(816) 421-0950</a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:maroon">• </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:black">Fax: <a href="tel:%28816%29%20249-2439" target="_blank">(816) 249-2439</a> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif;color:maroon">• </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.antella-inc.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Schoolbook",serif">www.antella-inc.com</span></a></span></p><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> </p><p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray">DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication, as well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use, dissemination, or copying of this electronic communication is strictly prohibited and is an interference with Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. confidential business relationships. If you received this communication in error, please notify me immediately and permanently delete the original and any electronic or printed copies of this electronic communication. </span></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><p> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bldg-sim mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal">-- </p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP<br>CEO/President<br>The Building Performance Team Inc.<br>1631 Acacia Dr, GR, Mi 49504<br><br>Direct: 616.450.8653<br><a href="mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">jim@buildingperformanceteam.com</a><br><br><a href="http://buildingperformanceteamcom" target="_blank">Website </a>l <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a></p><p style="margin-top:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:blue;background:white">The truth is still the truth, even if nobody believes it. A lie is still a lie, even if <i>everyone</i> believes it.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>