<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Hey Nick,<br><br></div>Thanks for your answer! <br><br>I think we're on the same page as to what needs to be done, including doing a simple rotation (which is equivalent to "rotating the entire city block" as it's been suggested to me on Unmet Hours)<br><br></div><div>Unless anyone else has something different to offer, I'm just going to assume this is the correct approach.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,<br></div><div>Julien<br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>--<br>Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA<br>Energy&Sustainability Engineer<br>T: +33 6 95 14 42 13<br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">LinkedIn (en) : <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec</a><br></span>LinkedIn (fr) : <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr</a></span><br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec" target="_blank"></a></span></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-04-30 21:41 GMT+02:00 Nicholas Caton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ncaton@catonenergy.com" target="_blank">ncaton@catonenergy.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Julien,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Adiabatic makes sense if you can assert they’re similarly conditioned structures</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I’d exclude such shared walls for the purposes of determining WWR</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">If you frame the adjacent abutting properties as “existing envelope conditions” precluding the design team from choosing any other orientation, you might be able to cite CI #5224 as precedent to avoid the rotation issues altogether: <a href="http://in.usgbc.org/leed-interpretations?keys=5224+&=Search" target="_blank">http://in.usgbc.org/leed-interpretations?keys=5224+&=Search</a>. I might try that first for preliminary submission, carefully citing that CI and explaining the lack of rotations on the EAp2 template, within the 1.4 tables spreadsheet, and optionally within any supplemental narrative/report you may include with preliminary submissions, if that’s your thing. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">That explanation puts the issue on the table for the reviewer to agree with or otherwise respond to. In the event you are made to perform rotations for final submission, I wouldn’t “go nuts” or do anything special beyond simply rotating the entire model unless given specific further direction by the reviewer in preliminary review commentary.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">On the other hand, maybe someone “in the know” will chime in on or off-list for you ;)… it’s been known to happen!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><br></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Owner</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> 1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br> office: 785.410.3317</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"><a href="http://www.catonenergy.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#561782"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Julien Marrec<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 28, 2015 11:59 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] App G Wall boundary condition when abutting an adjacent building</span></p><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi,</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Considering this is a software agnostic question, I thought I would ask it to bldg-sim.</p><p><strong>I'm wondering how people have been treating the walls between the modeled building and any adjacent, existing, buildings it's abutting in the proposed design, when doing New Construction, especially with ASHRAE Appendix G</strong></p><p>For EB and retrofit, there's no question, I'll treat it as adiabatic, unless I have thorough reasons to believe the next door building is or will be soon empty or even knocked down.</p><p>For New Construction, I'm a little bit more confused, especially considering you're supposed to rotate your building for the baseline...</p><p>If I were to go crazy down that path: if I treat it as adiabatic, does this mean I'd have to rotate the building manually, see what end ups in contact with the adjacent building, and remove the windows there, while setting the former adiabatic portion to exterior wall?</p><p>Here's an example of a project I'm working on right now (my building is 32 stories, the abutting are about 12 stories):</p><p><img src="https://unmethours.com/upfiles/14298568238696885.jpg" alt="My building is abutting three buildings" border="0"></p><p><b>So what say you, fellow modelers?</b></p><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal"><b>Do you treat it as adiabatic? </b></li><li class="MsoNormal"><b>If so, do you include that wall area in calculating the Window to Wall Ratio?</b></li><li class="MsoNormal"><b>Do you rotate the building?</b></li></ul><p><b>Do you have any sources for claiming one or another?</b> (ASHRAE interpretation, LEED credit interpretation).</p><p> </p><p>My personal two cents:</p><p>- I treat it as adiabatic</p><p>- Per Table G3.1.5a, "If it can be demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Program Evaluator that the building orientation is dictated by site considerations" ==> I don't rotate the building</p><p>- I don't include the adiabatic walls in the WWR calculation as I think the intent was like this, though 90.1-2010 Table G3.1.5c (Baseline) does only say: "...gross above-grade wall area" which could be interpreted otherwise.</p><p>Original question on Unmet hours is <a href="https://unmethours.com/question/4709/wall-boundary-condition-when-abutting-an-adjacent-building" target="_blank">here</a></p><p> </p><p>Thanks for any insights,</p><p>Best,</p><p>Julien</p><p>--</p><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA<br>Energy&Sustainability Engineer<br>T: <a href="tel:%2B33%206%2095%2014%2042%2013" value="+33695144213" target="_blank">+33 6 95 14 42 13</a><br><span style="color:black"><br>LinkedIn (en) : <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec</a><br>LinkedIn (fr) : <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/in/julienmarrec/fr</a></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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