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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m with Karen – I don’t think you can simply explain this one away to a LEED reviewer and will need to address/correct the issues you’ve identified<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If I’m not mistaken, “adiabatic” isn’t an option for exterior surfaces however, at least through the eQuest detailed mode interface. You could make a distinct
roof construction which has an impossibly low U-value to severely limit heat transfer (to/from exterior conditions), but that won’t correct the roof area figures your reviewer is tuned into.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In my opinion, the easiest reasonable thing to do would to assert (if you can) the thermostat setpoints are the identical between floors and therefore it’s
reasonable to not model heat transfer between floors, which means you can simply delete those “non-exposed” roofs. Re-defining those surfaces to be adiabatic ceiling/floor (using an interior wall construction) would have the same net effect except to define
additional thermal mass for the associated spaces.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The “partially correct” roof surface(s) on the other hand, which are both exposed and sandwiched, ought to be modified equally in both models to correct the
exposed portion. How simple/involved this is depends on your project’s geometries.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here’s a procedure for a correcting a partially sandwiched, single surface roof. This is done in detailed mode and assumes wizard-based model assembly:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Navigate to 3D view, highlight the roof surface to be edited<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Open properties window for that surface via the component tree or right-click context menu.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Identify the referenced space polygon (green text) in the surface properties<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Scroll down to that polygon in the component tree, right click, create a new polygon, copy the one you identified – name it anything you’ll easily
find in a long list.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Re-highlight that roof surface in the 3D view and open its properties window<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Re-assign the polygon (green text) to the copied polygon with a unique name (will now be red text). Click Done. 3D view should look like nothing
has changed at this point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Save a copy of your project separately before proceeding!
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Keeping a clear view of the roof section to be edited, now scroll down and double click on the new copied polygon to pull up its vertices.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">From here, play around with manually removing vertices to identify which consecutive series bounds the sandwiched portion of the surface. You will
observe which vertices go away or move in the 3D view behind if you delete/edit these inputs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Determine whether you need to define any new vertices, to define the “seam” edge where exposed roof meets exposed wall. If so, experiment with editing
a vertex to determine appropriate X/Y coordinates.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Once you’ve identified the vertices to remove and add, for eQuest stability reasons I try to edit existing polygon vertices before removing anything
from the list (you’ll typically end up with fewer vertices than you started). This is hard to put to words but bear with me: From the first vertex, identify the range which should remain (if any), then edit the following vertex points to any new coordinates
you may have determined for additional points, then copy the series of vertices to remain from the end of the list up, then finally right-click and restore default to remove all vertices remaining in the list, starting from the bottom.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For context, I personally do not treat new/edited vertex coordinates super-precisely typically – anything that looks close to right in the 3D view
is good enough for LEED. Remember you’ll be doing the same edits to both models. Don’t get worked up over small seams/holes in the picture – they don’t cause roof leaks in in the model!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Procedure for a multi-surface roof (one per space/plenum) is the similar except you do it for each partially sandwiched roof section (don’t worry this gets
quicker/easier after the first couple). Those fully-sandwiched sections can either be fully deleted per the above logic, or else re-defined as interior floor/ceiling surfaces if deemed necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Until you wrap up such polygon geometry edits, save separately and often, and run a simulation to test everything is working okay. I’ve had some mixed results
doing such edits with eQuest interface open. You may see errors/cautions pop up that can be simply clicked through without consequence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">When all is said and done, one piece of good news is you can save, close, and copy/paste all modified custom polygons between your baseline/proposed models,
which makes doing the same edits on the other model as simple as re-assigning polygons (with 3D view up to check your work).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="119" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CEC026.E4B21790" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, P.E.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen Walkerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 29, 2013 5:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Really need some deep DOE-2 theology on this one..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>If the "roofs" don't have a zone as the outside boundary condition, then the model views them as roofs exposed to the exterior. You need to fix this. If the spaces on the other side have the same thermostat setpoints, then the easiest thing to do is set
the roof type to "adiabatic". This will save you from having to define new polygons if the floor above has different zone shapes. For a roof that is only partially covered by the floor above, you need to create the new polygons. Sorry.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>--<br>
Karen <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sep 28, 2013 9:41 PM, "Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr." <<a href="mailto:poleary1969@gmail.com">poleary1969@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">this sounds like you have multiple shells in one model for this to occur? i'm pretty sure equest views an exterior wall/roof as an exterior wall/roof even if it is bounded by an interior wall. i had this problem come up on one of my own
models where i ended up having a building wing meet the building trunk & as i had put them in as 2 separate shells equest did not recognize the dividing wall where the wing met the trunk as being an interior wall & assigned it (via the wizard) an exterior
wall definition. i didn't catch this until reviewing the unmet load hour ss-r & s-va reports & couldn't figure out why the load was so high. changed the definition of the wall to interior (with a door) in detailed mode and the unmet load hours went to zero
and the load came down.<br>
<br>
my understanding (in my case) is that if you create multiple shells and place them with a common wall that you want to be an interior the shell rotations need to be zero, even if you have the separation between the two shells occur at a 45 deg angle (then ask
mr. architect about that one). <br>
<br>
On 9/28/13 4:47 PM, John Aulbach wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Gang:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I need to elite for this one, and you know who you are..<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am reviewing another party's eQuest model submitted for LEED. The reviewer noted that the roof area far exceeded the actual building footprint.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Well, guess why? Somehow, the other party made several floors ROOFS instead of ceilings. I might be able to simply turn the exterior spaces into interior ceilings, but one roof (over an unheated underground garage) is partially uder the
building and partially exposed to the "sidewalk/entrance" of the building.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The BIG Kahuena is this..if a space is crammed next to an adjacent space and one of the spaces claims an Exterioir surface between them, does DOE-2 think that Exterior surface is seeing outdoor conditions? Or does it ignore such a thin
and merely considers the heat transfer between the spaces (like the wall/roof is NOT exposed to the outdoors)?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My approach is this (unless you disagree)..leave the Exterior wall/roof along and explain that the model (now in Detailed Edit form) would need major surgery to correct to show actual roof area. Having the "roofs" there versus floors will
not change the thermodynamics of heat transfer.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I yield to the floor.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">John Aulbach, PE<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
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