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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">This data is way better than I can get,
Aaron. I don't know the CFMs these fans move, but for me it is
normal to see the smallest H.P. for the smallest 1.5 / 2 ton fan
coil at 1/5 H.P. Seeing something lower than that would be a
godsend. Who made these fans and how much air do they move?
Typically the fan coil manufacturers that I work with don't bother
giving fan H.P. (listed on your chart as Motor H.P.?) but rather
jump right to the motor nominal H.P. which is always higher.<br>
<br>
But I agree with you regarding amps. Typically the amps are much
higher than the corresponding H.P. for unknown reasons. Startup
current? Perhaps...<br>
<br>
I also note that your data has higher watts at higher voltages in
some cases, for unknown reasons, along with "peak" watts at
208/230 in other cases. I can't explain that.<br>
<br>
Thanks for sending this, but if you can identify the manufacturer
and the product, I would be very grateful.<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers!<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068
===============================================
</pre>
On 2/22/2013 1:51 PM, Aaron Smith wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">I’ve also run into problems obtaining combined
(fan and motor)
efficiency and input power, mostly with terminal units
such as heat pumps and
fan coil units but also with individual fans. What
I’ve often done
is used the watts listed in their electrical tables.
For example, below if
you take their size 20 at high fan speed, they
classify the motor HP at 1/30HP
or 25W (output power). I’ve taken the subsequent
columns to mean
input power so the watts at 115V is then 57W which
would make the motor is 44%
efficient and that seems reasonable to me. The listed
amps don’t necessarily
equate to the same wattages, they are usually higher
so my only theory is that
this is the starting amps. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">I’d be interested in finding out what other
have to say. I
have tried talking to some local equipment reps
without any luck.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">Aaron<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><img id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:part1.09000801.07010206@wichert.org"
height="519" width="761"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">Aaron Smith, P.Eng <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">M&R Engineering <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: RobertWichert [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:robert@wichert.org">mailto:robert@wichert.org</a>] <br>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 12:25 PM<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>; Scott Blunk<br>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Fan Power</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">This is a DOE-2 question, I think, but I am
applying it to
EnergyPro. I <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">am asking here in the hopes that some will
have a more in-depth <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">knowledge of DOE-2 and how it relates to fan
power. I am also
hoping <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">that some here will be able to reflect on the
theory and application of
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">fan power and energy as it relates to actual
systems and modeling.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">When inputting indoor fan power, I have used
many sources for the fan <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">power. I sometimes use the motor nameplate,
which I believe is
too high <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">in every case.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">I also sometimes use <st1:state w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">FLA</st1:place></st1:state>
or RLA, which I also do not believe are <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">accurate, but sometimes give more realistic
numbers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">Some manufacturers give fan BHP at design
conditions, which I find to
be <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">very helpful, but not everybody is that
helpful.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">It has been suggested that I calculate the fan
BHP using the
theoretical <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">formula *** Fan BHP = (cfm x static press
"w.c.) / (6356 x fan <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">efficiency) *** and then use a conservative
fan efficiency (maybe 50%) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">for a good number. This gives a much lower
value than the other <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">methods, and I am trying to see if there is
anything wrong with this <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">approach.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">As I understand the usage, indoor fan power is
divided by motor and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">drive efficiency to come up with fan energy.
So the fan BHP is
the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">starting point. Having this too high drives
up fan energy,
sometimes <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">dramatically, and can influence the proposed
case quite a bit if there <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">are lots of fans, even small fans.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">Any thoughts on this approach would be very
much appreciated.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">+1 916 966 9060<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">FAX +1 916 966 9068<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt">===============================================<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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