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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Aaron / Karen:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I have not had the pleasure of modeling a wood stove or other wood-fueled heating for a LEED project – I’d defer to first read any wood-heating related CIR’s
and other material.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I can relate that I’ve successfully completed a reviewed LEED model that used multiple baseline systems however where we were clearly bridging the “electric”
vs. “fossil fuel” divide. In the case I’m thinking of we had electric heating generally but used gas radiant heaters for some large back of house areas.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In retrospect it was a significant amount of extra documentation / explanation when all was said and done, but local gas vs. electric rates ultimately required
making that distinction in the baseline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">An outside the box thought: Maybe interpreting the operation of your fancy fireplace as a free/cheap process internal heat load (applied only to the proposed
model, with explanation) would be simpler from a baseline/documentation standpoint… Maybe =).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="119" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD0781.1AAA0CA0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900">SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen Walkerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 16, 2012 11:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dahlstrom, Aaron<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Masonry Heater and LEED<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Aaron,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your response. Wood is harvested on-site by the occupants. My project is very similar, and I think I will take the same approach. You might want to look into the CIR's because there was one from LEED 2.0 that mentioned locally
harvested wood for heat. The ruling was in relation to the renewable energy credit and indicated that credit can be taken for renewable energy for any wood harvested from the site, or an adjacent site with the same owner as long as there is a sustainable
forestry plan. Could be worth an extra 7 points for you guys.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As far as how to model it - I'm using EnergyPlus these days so I have many options for modeling the system.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">--<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Karen<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Dahlstrom, Aaron <<a href="mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com">ADahlstrom@in-posse.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Karen –
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Good question! I have a project right now using a wood stove.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">If it’s biomass, it technically isn’t “fossil fuel”, right?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">So, whether VRF (“electric”) OR biomass (“other”) is the predominant heat source, in both cases you’d be up against the right-hand
column of Table G3.1.1A for your baseline … make sense?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Additionally, are you actually modeling the “energy cost” of the masonry heater in the proposed case?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">(If so, a whole host of questions follow. Energy rate? Acceptable per LEED to use biomass heaters in model? Mechanism for modeling
in eQUEST?) If so, then I believe you would be attempting to show the energy cost difference between heating with wood (eg “Other” fuel source) and heating with an electric single-zone heat pump.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">On my job, there is a woodstove and a water source heatpump.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">However, the client has indicated that the use of the woodstove will be only occasional, so we are allowing the load to be carried
by the water-to-water heat pump only in the proposed case, and the baseline is from the right-hand column of Table G3.1.1A.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Additionally, they have 40+acres, and plan to harvest the wood on-site, so technically there is no cash paid for the woodfuel source
… ie it would only be a savings in the model versus the displaced electric heat pump heat … so we feel we are conservative in neglecting it. Might be a different story if the client was purchasing their wood. Anyone ever do a calc of $ / BTU from dry hardwood
versus natural gas versus heat pump heating?? ;)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:150%;text-autospace:none">
<b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray">Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:150%;text-autospace:none">
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT";color:#17365D">In P</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT";color:#619428">o</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"AvantGarde Bk BT";color:#17365D">sse</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray">
– </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray">A subsidiary of</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray">
</span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#CC0000">AKF</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray">| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia,
PA 19102 </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:150%;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray">d:
<a href="tel:215-282-6753" target="_blank">215-282-6753</a>| m: <a href="tel:267-507-5470" target="_blank">
267-507-5470</a>| In Posse: <a href="tel:215-282-6800" target="_blank">215-282-6800</a>| AKF:
<a href="tel:215-735-7290" target="_blank">215-735-7290</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray">e: <a href="mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com" target="_blank">
ADahlstrom@in-posse.com</a> | in posse web: <a href="http://www.in-posse.com/" target="_blank">
www.in-posse.com</a> | akf web: <a href="http://www.akfgroup.com/" target="_blank">
www.akfgroup.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:gray"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen Walkerman</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jim Dirkes<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Masonry Heater and LEED<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">a gorgeous way to heat with wood.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><a href="http://www.turtlerockheat.com/heaters.html" target="_blank">http://www.turtlerockheat.com/heaters.html</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Jim Dirkes <<a href="mailto:jim@buildingperformanceteam.com" target="_blank">jim@buildingperformanceteam.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What is a masonry heater?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:center">
<b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The Building Performance Team<br>
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">James V. Dirkes II, P.E., BEMP , LEED AP<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">1631 Acacia Drive NW<br>
Grand Rapids, MI 49504<br>
<a href="tel:616%20450%208653" target="_blank">616 450 8653</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen Walkerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Masonry Heater and LEED</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I have a LEED project that is utilizing a VRV system to provide heating and cooling. The building also has a masonry heater that the users will use often as a heat source and for
cooking. I'm completing a LEED model for this project and I'm not sure how to approach the baseline heating systems. The building has a fully functional VRV system - this would lead to choosing System 4 - PSZ-HP. However, the users will use the masonry
heater for heat whenever they can. This might lead to choosing System 3, and using a boiler. Any thoughts or experience with similar projects?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">--<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Karen<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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