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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I have modeled cases like this both ways and will continue to approach them leaving options open.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sometimes a combined area of windows is an acceptable approximation, and sometimes it is not. It very much depends on the purpose and intent of the model (notably,
what degree of accuracy is expected of the envelope).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">One can have a self-imposed ‘standard’ and that’s fine (I personally choose to regularly do/avoid some things it might be weird to expect others to do/avoid),
but in the end such approximations are the call of the person constructing the model. All such choices may be fairly made on a case-by-case basis if you are comfortable doing so and justifying your choices.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In the case of a LEED model, I would personally match the actual window layout in normal practice, and in doing so match the actual framing perimeter sums.
That said, I think LEED (really, 90.1 Appendix G) is intentionally constructed to permit a range of choices in this regard. If you’re made to approximate windows by combining their areas for whatever reason (I can think of a few good ones), provided your
baseline has a matching layout you’ve maintained a level playing field and should be able to sleep easy at night =).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If your absolute concern is modeled accuracy of the envelope/glazing systems (read: not necessarily a LEED performance rating model) – certainly you should
pay close mind to the actual framing areas and developed lengths for all the reasons discussed so far.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#CC9900"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E">fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">
</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>RobertWichert<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Do I need to use the actual window shape?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There would be a difference, for instance, if there were ten windows, all with metal frames, and you modeled that as one big window with ten times the area. I wouldn't do that. Maybe not important, but I wouldn't do it.<br>
<br>
The soffit only comes into the question of there is an overhang, which is shading, and must be modeled if you want to take credit for it.<br>
<br>
I think.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>+1 916 966 9060<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>FAX +1 916 966 9068<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>===============================================<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
On 2/29/2012 10:02 AM, Morgan Heater wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You can model whatever size and shape you want as long as your area weighted SHGC, and U-value are correct, and your shading is modeling correctly. Daylighting
performance might be affected slightly, along with passive solar performance, but I am fairly certain that the affect would be very small compared with the annual building energy use. If you’re genuinely curious, try it. Model a couple of different scenarios,
all with the same total area, u-value, and SHGC, and see what happens. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Morgan Heater, P.E.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">BEMP, LEED AP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:morgan@ecotope.com">morgan@ecotope.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">206-322-3753 ext 209</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>JRR<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 28, 2012 6:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Do I need to use the actual window shape?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">YES<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif""> </span> SEE<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif""> </span> Passive Solar Handbook Extended Professional Edition,<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif""> </span>
Mazria,<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif""> </span> 1979.<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif""> </span> try<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif""> </span> Amazon.com<br>
<br>
IT"S the header space at the top of the window, the width of the soffit,<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif""> </span> that turns off the summer heat................<br>
<br>
bye.......<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/24/2012 12:10 PM, Alex Krickx wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi Esmireta,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m not sure about what LEED requires, but I would be aware that in addition to Window-Wall Ratio, you should also consider Glass-Frame ratio. Depending on
the software and method that you model windows, two 3’x5’ windows with a 1” frame are NOT the same as one 6’x5’ window (the 6’x5’ would have two vertical components, whereas the two 3’x5’ would have four vertical components). I’m not sure a LEED reviewer would
notice the difference, but I think best practice is to include the correct frame area in your model.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Kind regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Alex Krickx</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#262F13">Alex Krickx, LEED AP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">Building Energy Specialist</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Serious Energy, Inc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">1250 Elko Dr, Sunnyvale, CA 94089</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">(t) 408.541.8124</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:akrickx@seriousenergy.com">akrickx@seriousenergy.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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it in error and any review, distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is prohibited and you are to notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete immediately this message and any attachments.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Esmireta<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> BLDGSIM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Do I need to use the actual window shape?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">When doing the LEED project, do I need to use the actual window shape, or just keep the window-wall ratio in each direction?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I don't think the window shape will influence the energy cost if the window-wall ratio is the same. But I don't know if the LEED reviewer care about it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Thanks a lot!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif""><br>
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<br>
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<p><span style="font-size:15.0pt">John R Ross III PE </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman , serif","serif"">Westwind Corporation
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