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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So if using a DOE based tool for instance are you suggesting you use a “lightweight” classification<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here in Canada the EE4 Modeling Guide recommends using “one weight heavier than the actual construction” which intuitive I have always had a problem with.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Of course I would expect the time load characteristics to vary between a floor receiving direct radiation and one in shade but this is probably too much detail
for the average modeling exercise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I don’t believe the Olesen paper (ASHRAE Sep 20008) addresses the time lag issue, is there another paper? I don’t recall seeing anything as I have kept an eye
open for such discussions><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Peter Simmonds [mailto:peter.simmonds@ibece.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Leslie Jones; varun kulkarni<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Radiant slab Heating Cooling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Please refer to work done by Bjarne Olesen and Michele di Carli and others that report on the time lag of radiant floor, which is very small. Refer to ASHRAE
papers on this subject.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Peter Simmonds, Ph.D., ASHRAE Fellow and DL<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Head of the Advanced Technology Group,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">IBE Consulting Engineers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">14130 Riverside drive, suite 201<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sherman Oaks, CA 91423<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tel; 818-305-3246<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mobile: 818-2191284<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Leslie Jones
<a href="mailto:[mailto:LJones@morrisonhershfield.com]">[mailto:LJones@morrisonhershfield.com]</a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> varun kulkarni; Peter Simmonds<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Radiant slab Heating Cooling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Is no one worried about the time characteristics of in-floor cooling (and heating) systems, i.e. the time lag between heat gains (or losses) and terminal/plant
loads?, some kind of fudge factor would likely be required for software like DOE but what might one do?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Les Jones<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]">[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>varun kulkarni<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Simmonds<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Radiant slab Heating Cooling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Peter,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I am using Carrier HAP and when I model a fan coil unit, I am asked to input the design supply temperatures for heating and cooling (which is usually 95F and 55F). Now, i think these are going to drive my energy
consumed at the boiler and chiller. The whole point (not the only point but a major though) of using radiant slab heating and cooling is lower temps for heating, higher temps for cooling and also the fact that water has higher energy carrying capacity then
air. So if you are not able to take credit for that in modeling then obviously, the energy consumption number is not right. Thats my reason to segregate the different temperatures.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Peter Simmonds <<a href="mailto:peter.simmonds@ibece.net">peter.simmonds@ibece.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Varun, your perception is nearly true, but it depends on what you are modeling? If you are modeling
the energy performance of a building a four pipe fan coil works just fine as it maintains the required energy balance. It is true that the actual performance of a radiant floor is different than a fan coil, but you are looking at energy and not optimal modeling.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Your thoughts on stratification are somewhat correct. I would tend to think that stratification is
caused by space heat load and air movement, especially displacement. Yes, there is a convective flow from the floor but this is quite small as the temperature difference between the floor surface temperature and the space operating temperature.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regarding temperature; this depends on what program you are using and why you want to segregate the
different temperatures?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Peter Simmonds, Ph.D.
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">Senior Associate<br>
Head of the Advanced Technology Group<br>
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">IBE Consulting Engineers</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">14130 Riverside Drive, Suite 201</span></b><span style="color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">Sherman Oaks, CA 91423
<br>
d: <a href="tel:%28818%29%20305-3246" target="_blank">(818) 305-3246</a> o: <a href="tel:%28818%29%20377-8220" target="_blank">
(818) 377-8220</a> f: <a href="tel:%28818%29%20377-8230" target="_blank">(818) 377-8230</a><br>
<br>
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray"><a href="http://www.ibece.com/" target="_blank" title="http://www.ibece.com/"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray;text-decoration:none">www.ibece.com</span></a><br>
</span></b><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">Ideas for the built environment</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif";color:#1F497D">This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>varun kulkarni<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Radiant slab Heating Cooling</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Good Morning everyone,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I have been reading through the archives for modeling radiant slab heating and cooling.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Most popular and the closest to real world approach I found was using a 4 pipe fan coil unit and making the fan energy zero.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I still have following questions:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span style="font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Did anyone think of using a factor, which when multiplied to the energy usage by fan coil system, give us the actual energy usage by radiant system. (I would guess it would be <1)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">As radiant heating and cooling forms a stratification layer in the space. And we care about first 6-8 feet to be within desired temperature range. So to take that into account while modeling “it” as fan coil
unit, can we lower the ceiling height. Does that mean the conduction load from ceiling/roof or the wall above 6-8 feet doesn’t count ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The temperature range for heating water (95F-105F) and cooling water (55F-65F) pumped in the radiant system is different from the typical chilled water (44F-45F) and heating water (170F-180F). How do we make
sure our model reflects this while using fan coil unit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I am sure there are more questions you would have come across but these were some of my major concerns and I would appreciate any inputs/ suggestions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">PS: This is a aspiring LEED platinum building.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Thanks and Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
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Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Varun Kulkarni <o:p></o:p></p>
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Note: Please do not print, unless required.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks and Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Varun Kulkarni <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Note: Please do not print, unless required.<o:p></o:p></p>
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