<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div>You need to have an apples to apples comparison, and you need to account for the pump energy. </div><div><br></div><div>As you indicate, the Step 2 baseline, is a standalone building, System #7, with pump energy included. </div><div><br></div><div>Your step 2 Proposed Case should account for the all pumping energy in some way. You have variable primary pumping, so the requirement to model secondary pumping in the building is not applicable, but you still need to account for all the pumping energy. Whether it is modeled in the plant or building is irrelevant. I'd probably model it in the building for simplicity sake. </div><div><br></div><div>Your step 1 models should have identical plant conditions. If all the pumping is in the plant, then I would leave the pump energy out of both Step 1 cases. </div><div><br></div><div><div>--</div><div><br></div><div>Chris Schaffner, PE</div><div>LEED Fellow</div><div>Founder and Principal</div><div><br></div><div>The Green Engineer, LLP</div><div>Sustainable Design Consulting</div><div>50 Beharrell Street</div><div>Concord, MA 01742</div><div>T: 978.369.8978</div><div>M:978.844.1464</div><div>chris@greenengineer.com</div><div>www.greenengineer.com</div><div><br></div><div>The Green Engineer, LLP is a Certified B Corporation</div></div><div><br></div><span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style="font-family:Verdana; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> Christian Kaltreider <<a href="mailto:ckaltreider@sudassociates.com">ckaltreider@sudassociates.com</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:47:15 -0400<br><span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> "'Quitadamo, Bob'" <<a href="mailto:bquitadamo@RDKEngineers.com">bquitadamo@RDKEngineers.com</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED Treatment of District Systems Pump Energy<br></div><div><br></div><div xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks for this information, Bob. You are correct that I’m referring to the earlier guideline (Required Treatment of District Thermal Energy in LEED Version 2.2 and LEED for Schools, Version 1.0, 2008). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I should have been clearer in my post: This is a LEED 2.2 project, and the model was originally created using the Version 1 guidance referenced above. This project was started before the newer 2010 document (Version 2). The model was submitted using the Step 1, Step 2 method of Version 1. I am now trying to address the reviewer’s comments. I did not create the original model, but I have inherited it since the original modeler is not here any longer. For addressing the comments, I think I should maintain the Version 1 format in which we submitted.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’ll do what seems to be most fair and accurate based on what I read in both documents and the main intent of apples-to-apples comparisons. I was just hoping someone else out there had come across this situation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks again,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Christian <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> Quitadamo, Bob [<a href="mailto:bquitadamo@RDKEngineers.com">mailto:bquitadamo@RDKEngineers.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:19 PM<br><b>To:</b> Christian Kaltreider<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] LEED Treatment of District Systems Pump Energy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I think you may be referring to an outdated USGBC guideline…The most current is here <a href="http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=7671">http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=7671</a> You should only have to model option one OR option two, whichever you believe to be more beneficial.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bob Quitadamo | Mechanical Energy Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="color:#1F497D">RDK Engineers<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="IT" style="color:#1F497D">Seaport Center, 70 Fargo Street, Suite 800, Boston, MA 02210<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1F497D">P: (857) 221-5927 | F: (617) 345-4226 | M: (978) 482-5629<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:bquitadamo@rdkengineers.com">bquitadamo@rdkengineers.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.rdkengineers.com/">http://www.rdkengineers.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="419" height="48" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01CC88B8.6B0436A0" alt="cid:image001.png@01CAF59E.2479A430"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Kaltreider<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:44 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] LEED Treatment of District Systems Pump Energy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi Everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I have not seen my specific situation adequately addressed in the LEED documentation, so I would be interested to hear others’ opinions on the matter: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I am modeling a building which relies on a central plant for heating and cooling. The plant serves only a few buildings. Heating enters the buildings as HW, not steam. My building is designed such that there are no hot water pumps…the BAS communicates back to the central plant pump system, which adjusts flow appropriately. All flow within the building is controlled by valves. My basic question is, in which models do I include HW pump energy (that’s 4 models…Step 1 Baseline and Proposed, and Step 2 Baseline and Proposed)?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Here are my thoughts. For certain I need to include HW pumps in the Step 2 Baseline, as for any Baseline using System 7. That leaves only 3 models to ponder. The LEED guidance I have read leads me to believe I should include HW pumps in Step 1 Baseline as well. The intention of Step 1 is to model the buildings independent of the central plant, which would lead me to <i>not</i> include the HW pump energy in my Step 1 Proposed model. Am I now cheating by including the pump energy in the Baseline but not the Proposed for Step 1? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">For Step 2, LEED documentation indicates that <i>secondary</i> pump energy needs to be modeled in the proposed aggregate building/DES model. This would lead me towards not modeling the central plant pumps, but again, is that cheating? A portion of the central plant pump energy is certainly being used to push water through my building…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks for any thoughts/opinions you may have,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Christian <o:p></o:p></span></p><p align="center" style="text-align:center"> <o:p></o:p></p><p align="center" style="text-align:center"> <o:p></o:p></p><p align="center" style="text-align:center"> <o:p></o:p></p><p>This e-mail message and any attachments are intended only for the designated recipient(s). In addition, this message and its attachments, if any, may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, or privileged and exempt from disclosure or otherwise protected under applicable law. If you are not the designated recipient of this message, you may not disclose, reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this transmission. Delivery of this message to any person other than the intended recipient is not intended to waive any right or privilege. If you have received this message in error, please promptly notify the sender by reply e-mail and immediately delete this message from your system.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div>_______________________________________________
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