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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Reba and Nick,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks for the responses. I believe I have resolved the issue. Although it is disconcerting to have such an unreasonable number of RTUs in the baseline, this was actually not the major cause of my modeling issues. However, it was causing part of the problem: In TRACE, each new RTU comes with a default amount of power associated with ‘miscellaneous accessories’ (control panel and interlocks). It’s not a whole lot, but in the baseline model this power allotment was added on over and over again (many RTUs), while in the proposed model it is only added a couple of times. I was able to adjust this to more reasonable values. This helped a good bit, but it does not affect heating energy… <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>As Nick suggests, the heating energy was not caused by the over-abundance of RTUs at all. I believe I actually identified the cause of this issue at some point early on, but I’d forgotten what had caused what in my numerous experimental iterations (another reminder to carefully document each change and its result on the model!). Sorry for any confusion there. I hate jumping the gun when posting a question.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>To address the TRACE-specific plants/systems relationship: In TRACE a system refers to the distribution side of things and a plant is primarily concerned with the generation of heating/cooling. You have to specify a plant to go with a system, even for a DX PSZ-HP…It is a little bit strange to think of a packaged DX unit in this way, but TRACE has a well-defined method of creating such configurations (the names for the systems and plants are pretty clear). In the case of a packaged unit, there should technically be one plant for each system since the generation and distribution are tied together in one unit and are independent of any other systems. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I hope this makes sense. I’m pretty new to TRACE, but I think my explanation above is correct. If anyone with more experience would like to elaborate, feel free!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks for your help,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Christian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Nick Caton [mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:13 PM<br><b>To:</b> Reba Schaber; Christian Kaltreider; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] 90.1 Baseline Model for Proposed VRV Design Model<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The queries posed are of two sorts: TRACE/HAP specific and 90.1/LEED specific. I can address the latter variety as I’m primarily an eQuest user:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>Combining similar zones/blocks may save some time in setting up the model (for any software package), but you may find it causes more work in the long run as you may be required to document/justify why your modeled systems are of a larger capacity than the proposed/actual units – food for thought.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>Many tiny RTU’s may seem unreasonable from an equipment-selection perspective (and often is), but the goal 90.1 is trying to establish is to set an efficiency standard for such equipment, as Reba is alluding to. Note that G.3.1.1 has provisions to define additional (per floor) baseline system types where that may be appropriate. That said…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>If your baseline model is outputting a significantly different energy distribution (suggested by your concern about heating becoming the primary consumption), that’s a likely sign something else is off in one or both models. Make some QC checks to ensure the loads/schedules/ventilation rates and other items that are supposed to be identical between the baseline/proposed are as such. A check of unmet hours may lead you down the same path.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>As to the PLANT/SYSTEM relationships – that sounds TRACE-specific to me. You might hold out for responses from others on this list more familiar with TRACE, or perhaps post a specific question to the TRACE-users list as well. FYI: it’s not entirely clear how/why the results are unreasonable or whether you’re talking about your proposed or baseline results from the context ;).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>It may be helpful to remember that terms like “zone” “space” “plant” and “system” can have software-specific meanings/nuances, so what may seem perfectly reasonable for HAP may not jive with TRACE and vice versa. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hope this helps somewhat =),<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CC67B2.1ED6E060" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, P.E.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>SENIOR ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway, suite 200<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe, ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913.344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913.345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span></u><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Reba Schaber<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 30, 2011 5:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> Christian Kaltreider; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] 90.1 Baseline Model for Proposed VRV Design Model<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Christian,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I have not seen this with a VRV system, but I’ve had a similar experience with a VAV system. The LEED reviewer insisted thermal blocks be modeled identically in Baseline and Proposed. That meant a Proposed bldg with 2 AHU’s each with about 35 VAV terminal units became about 70 package units in the Baseline bldg. Crazy, there is not enough roof space for 70 units.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Even though the Baseline systems do not always make sense, Appendix G attempts to make the energy models similar between everyone. It tries to standardize things for equal comparison. That’s my understanding.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I do have a question. I’m not familiar with Trace. In HAP only systems with heating or cooling coils can be added to a plant. How is it that Trace allows DX units be added to a plant? Seems you have a choice of multiple plants, one per system OR one plant for all systems. I think you should choose the model that most accurately represents a PSZ-HP. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:red'>PH</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <u>MECHANICAL ENGINEERING<br></u> <b>Reba Schaber</b> Mechanical Engineer, P.E.<br> LEED Accredited Professional<br>1660 N. Alvernon Way Voice: (520) 731-2060<br>Tucson, Arizona 85712 Fax: (520) 731-2061<br> <u><a href="mailto:rschaber@phmech.com">rschaber@phmech.com</a></u></span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Kaltreider<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:24 AM<br><b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] 90.1 Baseline Model for Proposed VRV Design Model<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hi All,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I am doing an Appendix G model for LEED. The proposed building uses a VRV system where each room has individual control over its own VRV unit. All of the VRV units share 2 heat pumps. My problem is this: Since each room has individual control, each room is a ‘thermal block’. I have combined as many as I can according to the Appendix G rules. However, I still have many thermal blocks. For the baseline, I am required to model a PSZ-HP (packaged roof top unit heat pump) for each thermal block. This is giving a bunch of tiny rooms their own individual RTUs, which seems ridiculous and it is driving my baseline energy use higher than reasonable (primarily in heating energy…not sure why). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I am modeling in TRACE, giving one SYSTEM per thermal block, and one PLANT per SYSTEM. If I am allowed to connect all of my systems to just one plant, my energy use becomes more reasonable…but this seems to go against Appendix G.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Has anyone come across this issue when modeling a baseline for a proposed VRV system? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Christian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Christian Kaltreider, LEED AP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Energy Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Sud Associates, PA<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>20 Battery Park Ave<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Flat Iron Building, Suite 706<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Asheville, NC 28801<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>(828) 255-4691<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:ckaltreider@sudassociates.com">ckaltreider@sudassociates.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><hr size=1 width="100%" noshade style='color:#ACA899' align=center></span></div><p class=avgcert>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3867 - Release Date: 08/30/11<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>