<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=gb2312">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Microsoft YaHei";
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@Microsoft YaHei";
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:SimSun;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:SimSun;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:SimSun;}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:SimSun;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:202406006;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:1184559788 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=WordSection1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Eleanor,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In my experience - active chilled beams typically operate at
constant volume (set to the ventilation rate in the room) and you vary the
cooling rate with a 3-way valve on the cooling coil to vary the cooling capacity
of the beam. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Different beam designs have different induction ratios ¨C I would
look up the manufacturers data. The typical range is around 3-6.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Yes ¨C you can simulate a WSE now ¨C you need to add a chiller and
select waterside economizer as chiller type. Not sure why your example is not
working ¨C if you attach an inp file I¡¯m sure someone can shed some light no
that. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#DCAA2C'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>Vikram Sami</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>, LEED AP
BD+C<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>Sustainable Design Analyst<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>1315 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA
30309<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>t: 404-443-7462
f: </span><span lang=ES style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:gray'>404.892.5823 </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> e:
vikram.sami@perkinswill.com </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a
href="http://www.perkinswill.com/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray;text-decoration:none'>www.perkinswill.com</span></a></span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:3.0pt;text-autospace:none'><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>Perkins+Will.</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#ADD425'>Ideas +
buildings that honor the broader goals of society</span><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><span
lang=ZH-CN style='font-size:10.0pt'>Éò½à</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [mailto:shenjie820730@hotmail.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 14, 2011 10:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> near_ej@yahoo.com; Sami, Vikram<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] DOAS and chilled beam/radiator<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>Hi,
Neeraj and Vikram: <br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'><br>
Thanks for your promote advice. I'm reading</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>DOE22Vol3-Topics.these
days and found</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>that IU's one
application is just ceiling radiator .<br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'><br>
Now, I have changed my system type</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>to</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>IU system with no separate MAU systems, but I still</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>have two puzzles :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>1)
The fan control is gray which means you can't choose variable, so is it</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>says that the</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>fan is running
the full power all the time?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>2)
How to define the induction ratio and make it reasonable? I'm not sure whether
the recirculating air volume will affect the fan power. it seems not. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>And
another question is about water economizer? Can we simulate water economizer
now?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>For
eQUEST 3.64, there are two methods, one is the water economizer in airside
system, but the weakness of this water economizer is it will add the AHU fan
power.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>The
other one is the water economizer chiller in waterside system, but it seems the
function is not matural, I tried , but the hourly report shows the chillers
still running in the winter for very low cooling load. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>Thanks
in advance. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>Eleanor
Shen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=stopSpelling>
</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'><br>
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 02:11:07 -0700<br>
From: near_ej@yahoo.com<br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] DOAS and chilled beam/radiator<br>
To: shenjie820730@hotmail.com<br>
CC: Vikram.Sami@perkinswill.com; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hello Eleanor,<br>
Adding to Vikram's advice -- You may then also apply the heat recovery to the
individual IU units instead of the DOAS.<br>
<br>
But, an important question for experts who may be experienced with working
real-life Chilled Beam systems is --<br>
<br>
Whether </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>or
not the OA moved through the active chilled beams is completely (100%) Outside
Air only <u>OR</u> Whether some of the supply air is still recirculated?<br>
I presume it'll depend on latent loads but I understand that for most occupied
zones some air is actually recirculated back to the AHU's to control the RH and
balance the system!?<br>
Please correct me if that is any different from anyone's real-life experience
and what Vikram is referring to is the experience you all share? Vikram, your
veiws?<br>
We are modeling a couple of chilled beam and slab systems but with little live
examples and experiences to corroborate on this aspect.<br>
<br>
Your inputs would be valuable . . . .<br>
Thanks,<br>
Neeraj<br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'>Neeraj
Kapoor<br>
t: +91.99581.70018<br>
Kalpakrit Sustainable Environments Pvt. Ltd.<br>
New Delhi, India</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","serif"'><br>
<br>
<br>
On 12-08-2011 17:13, Sami, Vikram wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>If you are using an active chilled beam, then you don't need to model the doas - just use 100% OA for your ahu.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Sent from a mobile device<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <span
lang=ZH-CN>Éò½à</span> [<a href="mailto:shenjie820730@hotmail.com">mailto:shenjie820730@hotmail.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 04:25 AM Central Standard Time<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: [Bldg-sim] DOAS and chilled beam/radiator<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Hi, all<span
lang=ZH-CN>£»</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I<span
lang=ZH-CN>¡¯</span>m simulating a project with chilled beam/radiator plus dedicated fresh air system, I search from archive, it seems most of you using DOAS (a dummy zone) and IU/FCU to simulate, DOAS provide the fresh air and IU/FCU use the <span
lang=ZH-CN>¡°</span>Outdoor air from<span lang=ZH-CN>¡±</span> DOAS, the radiator use baseboard instead with zero fan energy power.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>But the DOAS in my project is 1) variable speed to reduce the fresh air energy base on occupancy schedule; 2) wheel heat recovery with exhaust air; 3) during the transition period, the DOAS will bypass the wheel to provide maximum fresh air to offset all the heating and cooling demand and chilled beam and radiator will shut off.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Now, my method is :<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>1) using VAV system to represent DOAS , enter the <span
lang=ZH-CN>¡°</span> Design supply/return <span lang=ZH-CN>¡°</span> flow to show the DOAS fresh air and exhaust air volume;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>2) Define the wheel heat recovery with fresh air and exhaust air, and operation control is <span
lang=ZH-CN>¡°</span>OA exhaust DT<span lang=ZH-CN>¡±</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>3) Define the dummy with the same maximum fresh air volume, and also control the cool and heat temperature (otherwise the heat recovery will not work at all).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>It seems works very well. But when I reading hourly report, I found the fresh air volume keeps the maximum all the time, so the fan running at the rated power the whole year, which results in the large fan energy consumpation.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>How can I make the DOAS<span
lang=ZH-CN>¡¯</span>s fresh air volume variable and fan variable according to the acutal IU/FC<span
lang=ZH-CN>¡¯</span>s fresh air volume ??<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Any comments and suggestions will be appreciated.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Eleanor Shen (<span
lang=ZH-CN>Éò½à£©</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Consultant<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Environmental Resources Management<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Tel: +8621-5385 3050, ext:158<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Fax: +8621-6469 2185<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: <a
href="mailto:eleanor.shen@erm.com">eleanor.shen@erm.com</a> <a
href="mailto:j@erm.com"><mailto:j@erm.com></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://www.erm.com/" target="_blank">www.erm.com</a> <a
href="http://www.erm.com/" target="_blank"><http://www.erm.com/></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>ERM Chinese Web Page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://www.ermcn.com/" target="_blank">www.ermcn.com</a> <a
href="http://www.ermcn.com/" target="_blank"><http://www.ermcn.com/></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>*** ERM is granted Class A EIA License by China SEPA***<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>***ERM is named the 2008 Environmental Advisor of the Year (Acquisitions Monthly) ***<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute, copy, or alter this email.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Bldg-sim mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>