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I bring up the case of indoor electric vehicle charging stations such as
one might find in a huge refrigerated warehouse - I toured a Loblaws
facility. The vehicles, batteries and charging systems were the
latest and most efficient the designer could find. The quote I
heard was "20% more efficient, less heat, etc.". The
ventilation requirements for this type of vehicle/charging system are
also less than for industry standard equipment. Therefore, there
are significant savings if there is a baseline for this equipment and I
think the whole point of including such equipment would be to calculate
the savings over industry standard and apply those savings as process
energy credit. At least, that is how I would make my case if I were
submitting for LEED Canada.<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
At 11:08 AM 10/08/2011, David Eldridge wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Water pumps I see as a building
system that could be included. Other energy users related to
plumbing would be part of the building energy.<br><br>
Electric vehicles though I think you could make a case for as an external
load to the project subject to your ability to quantify the usage.
For example if you had a submeter and billed the fleet manager for the
electricity I see this as a pass-through.<br><br>
Without a submeter it might be harder to justify, as you'd never really
know how much it was, and your subsequent utility bill reporting would
include this energy.<br><br>
Let me suggest a parallel - If there was a diesel tank on-site for
fueling trucks it wouldn't be included.<br><br>
But it would be tricky to document/report if that same tank fed the
heating system, if you didn't log the usage for trucks.<br><br>
-DSE<br><br>
Sent from my iPhone<br><br>
On Aug 10, 2011, at 9:06 AM, "Dahlstrom, Aaron"
<<a href="mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com">ADahlstrom@in-posse.com</a>
> wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Aaron – <br><br>
<br><br>
I agree with Kevin – my understanding is, if the load is served frrom the
building meter and located within the LEED boundary, it should be
included in the LEED model.<br><br>
<br><br>
Both items would show up in the design and the baseline, as process
energy consumers.<br><br>
<br><br>
There is a tradeoff between water efficiency and energy efficiency that
is made when a building decides to install its own water pressurization
pumps. I’m not sure if your municipal water supply system has the
controllability to reduce its water pressurization pumping energy based
on your use of recovered water –“ but I haven’t had the chance to work
on those systems before, and I’m not sure how those systems are
assembled.<br><br>
<br><br>
If there are any efficiency measures on the rainwater pump that would be
considered above “documented industry standard”, you could look at
documenting a reduction from the baseline via an Exceptional Calculation
method.<br><br>
<br><br>
That said, I imagine that the key thing for both loads would be
determining a realistic schedule of use. You might find that the electric
charging station in particular has a high peak power draw but a
relatively low consumption, due to limited hours of use.<br><br>
<br><br>
In line with Kevin’s suggestion – if the electric vehicles are
replacing fleet vehicles that woould “traditionally” be sourced from
another fuel, there may be an opportunity to claim a different baseline
and show savings. But if they are just for visitors / employees, you
might just use a baseline that is identical to your design.<br><br>
<br><br>
<b>Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP<br>
</b><br>
<b>In Posse</b> – A subsidiary of <b>AKF</b>| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite
1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102 <br><br>
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF:
215-735-7290<br><br>
e: <a href="mailto:ADahlstrom@in-posse.com">ADahlstrom@in-posse.com</a> |
in posse web: <a href="http://www.in-posse.com">www.in-posse.com</a> |
akf web: <a href="http://www.akfgroup.com">www.akfgroup.com</a><br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
<b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Kevin Kyte<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Aaron Smith;
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED 2009 Modelling - Electric Vehicles
and Rainwater Cisterns<br><br>
<br><br>
Aaron,<br><br>
<br><br>
I would think you would include these measures as an external load
directly on the meter. Each one individually is probably
contributing to its own LEED point. However, it does raise
questions on how one could benchmark such measures. For the
electric vehicle charging stations, what if an on-site gas station was
theorized as a base case? Sounds like a lot of extra work, and what
takes more energy to make, coal or gasoline? Also, the rainwater
pump is used for toilet rooms or for gardening? Last I checked
pumping energy to water flowers was not included, though I suppose it
probably is not.<br><br>
<br><br>
Kevin<br><br>
<br><br>
<b>From:</b> Aaron Smith
<a href="mailto:asmith@mreng.ca" eudora="autourl">[</a>
mailto:asmith@mreng.ca<a href="mailto:asmith@mreng.ca" eudora="autourl">
]</a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 09, 2011 10:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] LEED 2009 Modelling - Electric Vehicles and
Rainwater Cisterns<br><br>
<br><br>
Hi,<br><br>
<br><br>
I’m putting together a LEED 2009 Submission and the rules now state
that “Both the baseline building model and the proposed model must
cover all building energy components…” (pg. 286 of LEED Canada
2009).<br><br>
<br><br>
I have no trouble including computer equipment, elevators and exterior
lights but we also have a rainwater cistern pump and electric vehicle
charging stations. I’m not sure if the electric vehicles should
be considered “building energy components”. As well, both
technologies actually save energy elsewhere (gasoline/diesel and water
utility pumping power) so I don’t think we should be penalized in our %
energy cost savings by adding these two energy uses to both reference
model and proposed model. Any thoughts on these? <br><br>
<br><br>
Cheers,<br><br>
Aaron<br><br>
<br><br>
<b>Aaron Smith, </b><i>P.Eng <br>
</i><br>
<i>LEED® AP BD+C, M-ASHRAE, Mechanical Engineer<br>
</i><br>
<image001.jpg><br><br>
t: (902) 422-7393<br><br>
f: (902) 423-4945<br><br>
e: <a href="mailto:asmith@mreng.ca">asmith@mreng.ca</a><br><br>
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