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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Christian,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For good or bad, I have ended up modeling
many Warehouse Distribution Centers, which in essence have a very small front
office and a very large warehouse that is only ventilated (by code). I
have had to argue with LEED reviewers this point, fortunately successfully. The
warehouse area is by definition "unconditioned space", just like Nick
states. Though you still have to model an HVAC system per ASHRAE, but
spreading the setpoints basically to outside air design conditions. The
reviews I have had have made it through this way. By doing this with the
setpoints, you will not have any unmet hours. But you are still providing
the right amount of ventilation air per 62.1 and the right power for all the
fans. The office is a totally different story, which you pretty much know
the answer to.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have had the comments go both way on the
following. Since the Warehouse is not conditioned I had one reviewer tell
me to change the Baseline HVAC system to packaged units due to the fact that
the only conditioned space was a tiny 10,000 sq.ft. space. Other
reveiwers have left me keep my standard ASHRAE System 8 baseline with the
modifications mentioned above for the warehouse area. (I usually utilize two
air handlers: one for warehouse and one for offices).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Calibri><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>Jorge E. Torres Coto </span></font><font size=1
color=black><span style='font-size:1.0pt;color:black;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;
padding:0in;background:black;layout-grid-mode:line'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'><img width=39
height=39 id="_x0000_i1028" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CC203D.7337EA80"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><font size=2
color=navy face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>4830
Viewridge Ave.</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font size=2
color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Calibri><span lang=ES-MX
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>San Diego, CA 92123<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Calibri><span lang=ES-MX
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>p 858.751.0933<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Calibri><span lang=ES-MX
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>f 858.751.0937<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Calibri><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>c 858.688.6088<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Calibri><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;color:navy'><img width=181 height=159 id="_x0000_i1029"
src="cid:image002.gif@01CC203D.7337EA80"></span></font><font size=3><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Nick Caton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 01, 2011
7:34 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> christian stalberg;
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim]
ventilation only & LEED</span></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Hi Christian,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>A LEED reviewer brought up this issue
for a heated/ventilated-only garage space recently. Owner did not want a
cooling system beyond ventilation, and one was not designed. Ultimately,
our reviewer cited TG3.1.1.b / G3.1.10 directly, and I conceded to model
baseline-esque cooling systems in both models. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I’m not sure section 2.2 is a
great defense as it states the standard doesn’t apply to *envelopes*
without a heating/cooling system… not ventilation systems (2.2.b.).
A better defense is if your warehouse is by 90.1 glossary terms an <i><u><span
style='font-style:italic'>unconditioned space</span></u></i>, by virtue of not
meeting any of the three <i><u><span style='font-style:italic'>conditioned
space</span></u></i> definitions. In that case, I think you could flatly
reject TG3.1.1.b as “not applicable” if it were brought up.
In our garage space above, this wasn’t an option as it was definitely a <i><u><span
style='font-style:italic'>heated space</span></u></i> (see glossary for
underlined terms).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I’d agree modeling both models
with ventilation only is the intuitive thing to do in the context of a
validation (LEED) model. The intent of this language however, if
I’m not mistaken, is to discourage/punish design decisions to omit
heating and/or cooling systems entirely to save energy. Never mind
that’s actually a very effective strategy, under the right circumstances
and in moderation… I’ve got some contrarian opinions in this
department, so I’ll keep my mouth shut =).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37
id="Picture_x005f_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.jpg@01CC203D.7337EA80"
alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span></font><b><font color="#2d4d5e"
face="Stylus BT"><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:
bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'>NICK
CATON, E.I.T.</span></font></b><b><font size=3 color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color="#cc9900" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></font><font
size=1 color="#cc9900" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=2
color="#2d4d5e" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font
size=2 color="#2d4d5e"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'> ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#2d4d5e" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></font></a></span></font><u><font
size=2 color=blue><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span></font></u><font
color="#1f497d"><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>christian stalberg<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 01, 2011
5:32 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Bldg-sim] ventilation
only & LEED<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>The warehouse section of our facility in <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">El Salvador</st1:place></st1:country-region> is
to be ventilated only. The textile section of the same building will be
cooled and humidity will be controlled. Other areas such as offices and
cafeteria will be cooled. There is no heating load in <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">El Salvador</st1:place></st1:country-region>. I
reviewed inquiry 5088 (copy below) which would suggest the warehouse should be
modeled with air conditioning in both the base case and the proposed case even
though no cooling will be provided. Our building is a little different
than the building in inquiry 5088 in that it has no heating load.
Therefore by the 90.1 standard, the standard does not apply (section 2.2) and
it is an unconditioned space. We feel the ventilated section of our
building should be rated based on energy savings of standard ventilation
equipment versus the proposed high efficiency fans and louvers that we are
providing for ventilation. We would like to proceed with the ventilated
enclosures being included in the model without heating or cooling. Please
advise.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Inquiry Number: </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3 face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>5088</span></font></b></strong><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>MPR/Prerequisite/Credit:
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>EAc1: Optimize Energy
Performance </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Posting date: </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>11/27/2007 </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>It is not acceptable to allow spaces to
exceed the unmet load hour requirements of the ASHRAE 90.1-2004 Appendix G
methodology. This is a similar situation to naturally <span style='background:
yellow'>ventilated spaces</span>, which are required to include cooling systems
to meet space loads in the proposed case even if the actual building will
contain no cooling. Building owners may always choose to turn off HVAC systems,
or not have them installed at all to conserve energy, but the ASHRAE modeling
protocol assumes that cooling systems will be installed and run with sufficient
capacity to meet space loads. The applicant may use a set-point of 80 degrees
Fahrenheit for the maintenance bays, but cooling system capacity must be increased
until the requirements of ASHRAE 90.1-2004 section G3.1.2.2 are met. The
project may still receive credit for using an efficient cooling system as
compared to the ASHRAE baseline cooling system.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> <span
class=style2>Inquiry </span>[<img border=0 width=8 height=8 id="_x0000_i1025"
src="https://www.usgbc.org/images/LI/Minus.GIF">] </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
<td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Our project is located
in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Las Vegas</st1:place></st1:City>
and consists of a combination of office spaces and maintenance bays for
earth-moving equipment. The owner is a large agency that sells, rents and
repairs such equipment; these repairs are done both inside and outside the
building envelope. The maintenance bays are occupied by mechanics and will be
conditioned with evaporative coolers and gas furnace heat, the system
supplies 100% outside air. This cooling system provides conditioning of the
spaces but is not able to meet all peak loads for a climate such as <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Las Vegas</st1:place></st1:City> even when
these spaces are modeled with higher setpoint at 80 degrees. In reality, if
the maintenance bays go above the temperature setpoints, the mechanics will
continue work in the warmer conditions or take a break. This is not difficult
for maintenance bays, where some of the work will also done outdoors with no
conditioning at all. The owner does not want to fully condition the
maintenance bays with the intention of achieving high levels of energy
efficiency. We propose the following modeling approach for EA Credit 1.
-Baseline model will have a mechanical system based on Table G3.1.1A of
Appendix G with 80 degree temperature setpoint for the maintenance bays.
-Proposed Design model will have the system as designed in the building that
provides partial conditioning with the same 80 degree temperature setpoint.
We will not model additional compressor cooling for hours where the system is
not able to meet loads. This approach will result in exceeding the difference
in the unmet load hours beyond 50 as required by Appendix G. However, this is
a conscious decision by the owner who wants to maximize energy efficiency by
providing limited conditioning through evaporative cooling for the
maintenance bays, and allow the temperatures to float higher during peak
conditions. We feel that this approach appropriately captures the intent of
the design, and gives credit to the energy efficiency measures being taken.
It also provides a way for demonstrating the value of an energy efficient
approach to the community in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Las
Vegas</st1:place></st1:City> where compressor cooling is increasingly used,
often indiscriminately; this is a desert climate and a different approach to
comfort and conditioning is possible. Is this approach acceptable? If not,
can you advise us on an alternative approach that addresses the desire of the
owner to demonstrate high levels of energy efficiency for using such a
system?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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