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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The EAp2c1 credit for thermal storage would be minimal I think
but it does exist as currently written. Since the proposed metric is a
combination of cost and EUI, thermal storage should do better in one and
probably worse in the other.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Not sure how we could separate out the systems in the models for
EAp2c1, but you make a good point about potential double counting (not always a
bad thing for LEED if it is something we really want to encourage like renewables).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:green'>Marcus Sheffer</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:green'>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>717-292-2636, </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><a
href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com"><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Arpan Bakshi
[mailto:arpanbakshi@gmail.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 7:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marcus Sheffer<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Julia Beabout; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>While we have Marcus's attention, I would like to rant !<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Since the next version of LEED will have a credit dedicated
to peak demand reduction, can we make it so that credit cannot be taken for
EAp2c1 for thermal energy storage systems?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The peak demand credit already addresses reduction of power
generation at the power plant scale, so optimize energy performance can be more
true to reduction of site energy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Too many towers apply no energy conservation measures to
internal gains and simply transfer their cooling requirements to their CALMAC
tanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Marcus Sheffer <<a
href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Julia,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I appreciate your thoughts and input.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>In my opinion early stage modeling (or a
reasonable facsimile) should be required for every green building
project. Doing a model at the end for those average projects serves no
real purpose and is frankly a waste of everyone’s time (see previous
rant). If we continue to allow this for LEED the market will never
change. Keep in mind we are talking about LEED and its stated purpose is
market transformation. The typical project should not be able to get LEED
certified if it works properly in the market. Right now the market has
caught up to LEED in many ways. If it does not stay ahead of the market
then it ceases to have any meaning whatsoever. So, if not now, when?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I don’t disagree that the current
requirements are rather prescriptive and that the number of iterations should
vary project-to-project. I am struggling to come up with an alternative
that still requires design phase modeling.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>One can still earn the prerequisite
without early stage modeling, but cannot earn any points for EAc1 as it is now
proposed. I don’t think an ID credit would give enough incentive, too
easy to ignore. There are prescriptive paths specifically to address
small projects.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Marcus Sheffer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville,
PA 17365</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="tel:717-292-2636" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>,
</span><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span
style='font-size:7.5pt'>sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a
href="http://www.sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>www.sevengroup.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Julia
Beabout [mailto:<a href="mailto:juliabeabout@yahoo.com" target="_blank">juliabeabout@yahoo.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 10:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marcus Sheffer; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Omar,<br>
This is cracking me up. I don't think I've ever seen this much traffic on
one issue! LOL.<br>
Regarding the manhours for a LEED model - my opinion is that the amount of time
has much more to do with the level of certification the project is going for,
at what point the modeling services are engaged in the design, and the type and
complexity of the building (systems). That's not to say the number of
manhours is completely independent of building size (square footage), but its
not particularly sensitive to it. I find that that there is a high
"low" and low "high" for modeling. In other words,
it's hard to complete an energy model in less than 60-80 hours (all said and
done - paperwork, LEED responses etc), but it rarely take more than 250
hours. (Although, some rare complex projects going for platinmum could
take up to 350 hours). Like others, I find the norm for a reasonably
complex bldg going for LEED silver or gold typically requires between 120 and
160 hours. <br>
<br>
Marcus <br>
Here's my two cents on below. I will look for the public comment period as
well. Thanks for the heads up.<br>
I think the idea of incentivizing modeling early in the design is a great idea,
but I think requiring it is completely inappropriate. Perhaps it could be
encouraged by awarding an extra (innovation? or EA cr 1?) point for starting
modeling in schematic design. Or, perhaps the credit could be
restructured similar to the CX credits where in order to get the enhanced CX
credits, you have to have the CX agent involved early in the design. In
some ways, the current set up already does this though with the progress points
for increased levels of saving. Quite frankly, if you are going for 50%
savings, you're not gonig to get there unless you start modeling really early
in the process.<br>
<br>
I also think prescribing a certain minimum number of ECMs to look at is
inappropriate and would probably have the adverse effect of discouraging energy
modeling. The appropriate number of ECMs is highly project dependent -
based on building size, scope, complexity, type, level of LEED certification
shooting for, and not least of all the owner's budget. Let's face it, the
vast majority of bldgs out there and that consume most of the energy in the US
are (strip) malls, grocery stores, restaurants etc. These projects barely
event have a schematic, design and CD phase. While we all love to work on
the exotic, platinum level, cutting edge, bldgs that are likely to have a large
budget for design, these are not the majority of bldgs consuming energy.
I think we should be doing more to encourage modeling and energy savings
amongst the every day projects than the "sexy" projects. It
seems to me the best way to do this is to offer incentives in this direction in
lieu of prescriptive requirements that could discourage/put off smaller
projects from even attempting to incorporate modeling. <br>
<br>
Julia</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Marcus
Sheffer <<a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Fri, May 13, 2011 8:16:56 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>If anyone has any good ideas about how
to structure the LEED credits to end the practice of validation models at the
end and encourage/require design phase modeling the folks on the USGBC EA TAG
would love to hear them. The current proposed credit language from the
first public comment phase is listed below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'>NC, CS, SCHOOLS, RETAIL, WAREHOUSE &
DISTRIBUTION CENTERS, HOSPITALITY</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'>Establish an energy performance target
no later than the schematic design phase. The target must be established as
kBTU per square foot-year of source energy use. This target must be mapped on
the same scale as the baseline and proposed buildings, if the project follows
Option 1.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'>OPTION 1. Whole Building Energy
Simulation </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'>Analyze a minimum of at least nine
efficiency measures during the design process and account for the results in
design decision-making. Analysis can include energy simulation of efficiency
opportunities, application of past energy simulation analyses for similar
projects to the project, or application of published data from energy analyses
performed for similar projects to the project (such as AEDGs).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'>A minimum of six energy efficiency
measures focused on load reduction strategies appropriate for the facility must
be analyzed. This analysis must be performed during the schematic design phase.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'>A minimum of three energy efficiency
measures focused on HVAC related strategies must be analyzed (passive measures
are acceptable). This analysis must be performed before the conclusion of the
design development phase.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C'>The results of the analysis must be
summarized in a brief report or memorandum.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The next version of LEED will be going
out for public comment again in July, I think, so please comment formally as
well as discussing here.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Marcus Sheffer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville,
PA 17365</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="tel:717-292-2636" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>,
</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com"
target="_blank"><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com"
target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> John
Aulbach [mailto:<a href="mailto:jra_sac@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jra_sac@yahoo.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; Marcus Sheffer<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>OK,
Carol..now you threw the "bait" out there..older than dirt, eh?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I
have done very limited LEED "type" modeling where you compare 20
walls and 40 windows types (well, it seemed that way). Correct me if I am
wrong, but a Base model must be built to comply with a certain level of ASHRAE
90.1 (now up to 2010 ??). With all of the nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going
to build the model from scrathc and put in all the relevant baseline data in by
hand. And, by the way, the ASHRAE baseline model might be an entirely
different system. I am just completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE
90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC was screwe chillers, whereas the Actual
building was packaged units with Turbocor compressors (ask me how I did
that).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>It
very much depends on the complexity of the building. A 40,000 sf office or a
500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I
am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out after the modeling has
been done. But I would not do anything of this type in under 120 hours,
preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can do better, let him.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Contingency,
contingency.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>We
won't discuss how old CAROL might be..<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>John
A.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Carol
Gardner <<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<br>
</span><br>
Marcus,<br>
<br>
You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP
certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP). <br>
<br>
Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of
years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with
questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was
worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that they
were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing training
to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to how or if
they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a path to
certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look for in
their modelers.<br>
<br>
If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I
mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of
chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED
Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED
Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not
give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing
doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?<br>
<br>
So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and
technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find any
topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily
searchable. <br>
<br>
So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and
I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going
to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.<br>
<br>
It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients
about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting
the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to
be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that GIGO.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Carol<br>
<br>
<br>
Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <<a
href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>In our experience a final model, done right, would take
about 80 hours.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Doing just a final model however completely misses the
point as to why we model – it is to guide design decisions! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to
determine LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the
potential client about the purpose of modeling.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only
doing the minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all
the benefits. Too often the “market” transforms only based on a least
first cost denominator basis that results in little real transformation.
Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any
energy, and just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version
actually requires design phase modeling!)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Any “modeler” who does only final models without
attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed
out of the corp” in my humble opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120
or 160 or more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go
up against the “modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far less time.
So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work
so that they can compare fees on a level playing field? It is unfortunate
that we are even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to
its purpose.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. </span><span
style='font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='color:#1F497D'>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Marcus Sheffer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville,
PA 17365</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="tel:717-292-2636" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>,
</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com"
target="_blank"><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com/"
target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Demba Ndiaye<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Omar Delgado; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Omar,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>I would expect, for a building this size, approximately
40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED
documentation, and any review you may have to respond to later.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will
take you more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>HTH,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>_______________</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Demba NDIAYE</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Omar Delgado<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Greetings
everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I
have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project. Every
energy model I've done so far has been for <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>existing
buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received an RFP to
model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>that's
currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver certification.
I really have no idea what would be a fair <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>price
for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to
evaluate the difference between the base <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>and
proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take. I know
the procedure, just haven't done it before.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Can
you shed any light on this issue?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks
in advance!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span
lang=ES-PR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus'>Omar A. Delgado Colón,
P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus'>Vice President</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='color:#FF8000'>Ener</span>Mech</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>PMB 340</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>130 Winston Churchill Ave.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='font-size:10.0pt'>San Juan, PR 00926-6018</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='font-size:10.0pt'>Cel. (787) 224-6537</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR><a href="http://odelgado@enermechpr.com" target="_blank">odelgado@enermechpr.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR><a href="mailto:info@enermechpr.com" target="_blank">info@enermechpr.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a
href="http://www.enermechpr.com/" target="_blank"><span lang=ES-PR>www.enermechpr.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#74B230'><img border=0 width=22 height=21
id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image001.gif@01CC148F.2ADBABA0"
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<p>Arpan Bakshi,<i><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></i><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>LEED AP BD+C</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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