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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Agreed. The new credit language for the next version of LEED
does ask project teams to establish an absolute performance goal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:green'>Marcus Sheffer</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:green'>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>717-292-2636, </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><a
href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com"><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Hussein
Abaza<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 10:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bill Bishop<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost - best design doesn't
equalmost LEED points<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'>Could
any one advice why LEED would not put the base design as Watt per square foot,
or per occupant, or per hotel bed etc. so the Architecture becomes more
innovative early in the design to save energy?<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Bill Bishop" <wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com><br>
To: "Arpan Bakshi" <arpanbakshi@gmail.com><br>
Cc: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:11:30 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost - best design doesn't equal
most LEED points<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Arpan,</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Based on the Weidt Group paper, I’m guessing you’re emphasizing
architectural considerations that affect the energy cost vs. LEED points
numbers. (The paper uses window-to-wall ratios and daylighting as an example.)
I would think the goal during the programming and schematic design phases
should be energy cost, not LEED points relative to the App. G baseline. Much of
the energy cost savings vs. App. G baseline (EAc1 points) is going to come
later from the mechanical and lighting designs. The suggestions in the paper to
establish specific baseline building shapes and glazing percentages would add a
LOT more modeling time – you’d have to create two separate building geometries
for the baseline and proposed models, not to mention different zoning patterns,
space types, lighting power per space etc.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>For mechanical design, once the size and programming of the
project is established, the baseline model properties are pretty well set,
unless you consider fuel-switching and go between baseline systems 1/3/5/7 to
systems 2/4/6/8. One exception I can think of for a design decision that
results in higher energy cost but better comparison with the App. G baseline is
higher ventilation rates combined with heat recovery in the proposed and no
heat recovery in the baseline.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regards,</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img border=0 width=496 height=123 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CC1194.3A8E7B70" alt="Signature in jpg form"></span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:#000099'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:#000099'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Arpan
Bakshi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 9:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> sheffer@energyopportunities.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#000099'>Marcus, thank you incorporating
this language.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#000099'>The
one scenario we often see in our design guidance work is that a proposed design
when compared with other design alternates does not necessarily provided the
largest energy savings when compared against its own baseline case model. It is
difficult to make a recommendation as consultants when we want to present the
Owner with both real energy cost savings without compromising their LEED
certification level targets. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#000099'>A recent paper presented by the
Weidt Group at SimBuild touched on this issue:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#000099'><a
href="http://www.ibpsa.us/pub/simbuild2010/technicalPresentations/SB10-PPT-TS02A-03-Baker.pdf"
target="_blank">http://www.ibpsa.us/pub/simbuild2010/technicalPresentations/SB10-PPT-TS02A-03-Baker.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='color:#000099'>Arpan
Bakshi, LEED AP BD+C</span></span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='color:#000099'>YRG
sustainability</span></span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#000099'><br>
On May 13, 2011, at 8:16 AM, "Marcus Sheffer" <<a
href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If
anyone has any good ideas about how to structure the LEED credits to end the
practice of validation models at the end and encourage/require design phase
modeling the folks on the USGBC EA TAG would love to hear them. The
current proposed credit language from the first public comment phase is listed
below.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'>NC,
CS, SCHOOLS, RETAIL, WAREHOUSE & DISTRIBUTION CENTERS, HOSPITALITY</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'>Establish
an energy performance target no later than the schematic design phase. The
target must be established as kBTU per square foot-year of source energy use.
This target must be mapped on the same scale as the baseline and proposed
buildings, if the project follows Option 1.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'> </span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'>OPTION
1. Whole Building Energy Simulation </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'>Analyze
a minimum of at least nine efficiency measures during the design process and
account for the results in design decision-making. Analysis can include energy
simulation of efficiency opportunities, application of past energy simulation
analyses for similar projects to the project, or application of published data
from energy analyses performed for similar projects to the project (such as
AEDGs).</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'> </span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'>A
minimum of six energy efficiency measures focused on load reduction strategies
appropriate for the facility must be analyzed. This analysis must be performed
during the schematic design phase.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'> </span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'>A
minimum of three energy efficiency measures focused on HVAC related strategies
must be analyzed (passive measures are acceptable). This analysis must be
performed before the conclusion of the design development phase.</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'> </span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#76923C'>The
results of the analysis must be summarized in a brief report or memorandum.</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The
next version of LEED will be going out for public comment again in July, I
think, so please comment formally as well as discussing here.</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'>Marcus
Sheffer</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'>Energy
Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>1200 E
Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>717-292-2636,
</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com"
target="_blank"><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a
href="http://www.sevengroup.com" target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#000099'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#000099'> John
Aulbach [mailto:jra_sac@yahoo.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; Marcus Sheffer<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out
there..older than dirt, eh?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling
where you compare 20 walls and 40 windows types (well, it seemed that
way). Correct me if I am wrong, but a Base model must be built to comply
with a certain level of ASHRAE 90.1 (now up to 2010 ??). With all of the
nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going to build the model from scrathc and put in
all the relevant baseline data in by hand. And, by the way, the ASHRAE
baseline model might be an entirely different system. I am just
completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE 90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC was
screwe chillers, whereas the Actual building was packaged units with Turbocor
compressors (ask me how I did that).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A
40,000 sf office or a 500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out
after the modeling has been done. But I would not do anything of this type in
under 120 hours, preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can do better,
let him.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>Contingency, contingency.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>John A.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#000099'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#000099'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#000099'> Carol
Gardner <<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<br>
</span><span style='color:#000099'><br>
Marcus,<br>
<br>
You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP
certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP). <br>
<br>
Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of
years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with
questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was
worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that
they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing
training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to
how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a
path to certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look
for in their modelers.<br>
<br>
If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I
mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of
chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED
Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED
Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not
give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing
doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?<br>
<br>
So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and
technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find any
topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily
searchable. <br>
<br>
So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and
I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going
to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.<br>
<br>
It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients
about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting
the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to
be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that GIGO.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Carol<br>
<br>
<br>
Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <<a
href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>In our experience a final model, done right, would take
about 80 hours.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Doing just a final model however completely misses the
point as to why we model – it is to guide design decisions! </span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to
determine LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the
potential client about the purpose of modeling.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only
doing the minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all
the benefits. Too often the “market” transforms only based on a least
first cost denominator basis that results in little real transformation.
Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any
energy, and just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version
actually requires design phase modeling!)</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Any “modeler” who does only final models without
attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed
out of the corp” in my humble opinion.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120
or 160 or more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go
up against the “modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far less time.
So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work
so that they can compare fees on a level playing field? It is unfortunate
that we are even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to
its purpose.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. </span><span
style='font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='color:#1F497D'>
</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Marcus Sheffer</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville,
PA 17365</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>717-292-2636, </span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span
style='font-size:7.5pt'>sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com"
target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:#000099'> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Demba Ndiaye<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Omar Delgado; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Omar,</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>I would expect, for a building this size, approximately
40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED
documentation, and any review you may have to respond to later.</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will
take you more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.</span><span style='color:
#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>HTH,</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>_______________</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Demba NDIAYE</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:#000099'> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Omar Delgado<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>Greetings everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model
for a LEED project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes.
However, I received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the
LEED-NC Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>price for this model since I'm going to have to use
Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra
effort this will take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>Can you shed any light on this issue?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'>Thanks in advance!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span
lang=ES-PR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus;color:#000099'>Omar A.
Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C</span></i><span style='color:
#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus;color:#000099'>Vice President</span></i><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='color:#FF8000'>Ener</span><span style='color:#000099'>Mech</span></b><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099'>PMB 340</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099'>130 Winston Churchill Ave.</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099'>San Juan, PR 00926-6018</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099'>Cel. (787) 224-6537</span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='color:#000099'><a href="mailto:odelgado@enermechpr.com"
target="_blank">odelgado@enermechpr.com</a></span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='color:#000099'><a href="mailto:info@enermechpr.com"
target="_blank">info@enermechpr.com</a></span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'><a href="http://www.enermechpr.com/" target="_blank"><span
lang=ES-PR>www.enermechpr.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='color:#000099'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='color:#000099'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='color:#000099'> </span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#74B230'><image001.gif> <i>Please
consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail</i></span><span
style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span
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unauthorized. If you are not an intended recipient, you must not read, use or
disseminate the information contained in the email. Any views expressed in this
message are those of the individual sender and may be subject to
Attorney/Client privilege and/or Work Product. You are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution or copying of this communications is strictly
prohibited.</span><span style='color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span
style='color:#000099'><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org"
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</blockquote>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#000099'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#000099'>_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'><br>
_______________________________________________ Bldg-sim mailing list
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unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG
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-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoHeader><strong><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#006600'>Dr. Hussein Abaza, Assistant Professor</span></strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoHeader><strong><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#006600'>Construction Management Department </span></strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoHeader><strong><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#006600'>SCHOOL OF ARCHITECTURE’</span></strong><span style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoHeader><strong><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#006600'>CIVIL ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY</span></strong><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoHeader><strong><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#006600'> And CONSTRUCTION</span></strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoHeader><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>1100 South Marietta Parkway, Marietta, GA 30060-2896</span><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoHeader><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Website: </span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#000099'><a href="http://www.spsu.edu/cost"><span style='font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"'>www.spsu.edu/cost</span></a></span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> Tel:
678-915-3719 Fax: 678-915-4966</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoHeader><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>E-mail: ahussein@spsu.edu</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#000099'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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