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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Very interesting discussion. I think folks can agree that the US Energy Modeling Services market, snapshot today, can be best characterized as an immature and
evolving market – in my opinion, it certainly doesn’t fit the description of a commodity service (I see many potential ‘customers’ searching for the lowest cost’ with little understanding of what they are purchasing) and I have mixed feeling about driving
the industry towards commodity services. It’s the path to scale, which we all want, but if not carefully crafted, will lead to more market confusion and poor quality – no one wins. LEED has played a significant role in creating a market for these services,
but, IMHO, it can only ‘regulate the market’ so far – at some point innovation (people/product/process) needs to carry the market to the next step. Perhaps a better management of expectations between stakeholders would be an improvement..?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Although it is a relatively ‘old’ document, I attach it here for sharing. At every energy modeling training I conduct, I give away this document and emphasize
its usefulness. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">it’s a DOE FEMP publication so it carries branding and credibility WAY beyond me/my firm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">There’s a lot of good strong ‘fundamental’ PROCESS information for client education buried in this document<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Relevant to this discussion, see .pdf pages 31-32 (of 36).. “Determining Costs and Fees” – I think you will find it an interesting read!
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All the Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">_Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chris Balbach, PE, CEM, BEMP, CMVP, BESA, BEAP</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Vice President of Research and Development<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Cell: (607)-327-1647<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";color:#639F42"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";color:#639F42">Performance Systems Development</span></b><span style="color:black">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";color:black">124 Brindley Street, Ithaca, NY 14850<br>
<a href="http://www.psdconsulting.com/">www.psdconsulting.com</a></span><span style="color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen Walkerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 11:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Arpan Bakshi<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">David - Yes. Here are some things that I have found increase model complexity:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. Building geometry. Complex building geometry, pitched roofs, dormers, occupied spaces in attics, etc increase model time. Even if you simply the model to have flat roofs, there is still time involved for you to figure out the most
appropriate way to simplify the building.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2. Variety of space use. Buildings that have many different space use types contained within one shell will require additional modeling time. This reduces the number of zones that can be combined in order to simplify modeling.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">3. HVAC system complexity and novelty. Attempting to model a system that your energy modeling program is not designed to model can be very time consuming.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">4. Alternatives to model. How many alternatives will you be asked to compare? Will you be requested to model alternatives to the HVAC system? Building Geometry? Making changes to these system types is time consuming.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">5. Completeness of documents and availability of data. How much time will you need to spend tracking down information for your model?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The software you use will also affect the difficulty of modeling/changing the above items.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">--<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Karen<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Arpan Bakshi <<a href="mailto:arpanbakshi@gmail.com">arpanbakshi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In efforts to summarize the pricing conversation, that the pricing should be established by modeling complexity instead of by building size, is the following a fair assessment of what everyone's comments amount to?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">LEED Certified: 60-80 hours<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">LEED Silver: 80-160 hours<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">LEED Gold: 160-250 hours<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">LEED Platinum: 250-350 hours<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Julia Beabout <<a href="mailto:juliabeabout@yahoo.com" target="_blank">juliabeabout@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Omar,<br>
This is cracking me up. I don't think I've ever seen this much traffic on one issue! LOL.<br>
Regarding the manhours for a LEED model - my opinion is that the amount of time has much more to do with the level of certification the project is going for, at what point the modeling services are engaged in the design, and the type and complexity of the building
(systems). That's not to say the number of manhours is completely independent of building size (square footage), but its not particularly sensitive to it. I find that that there is a high "low" and low "high" for modeling. In other words, it's hard to complete
an energy model in less than 60-80 hours (all said and done - paperwork, LEED responses etc), but it rarely take more than 250 hours. (Although, some rare complex projects going for platinmum could take up to 350 hours). Like others, I find the norm for
a reasonably complex bldg going for LEED silver or gold typically requires between 120 and 160 hours.
<br>
<br>
Marcus <br>
Here's my two cents on below. I will look for the public comment period as well. Thanks for the heads up.<br>
I think the idea of incentivizing modeling early in the design is a great idea, but I think requiring it is completely inappropriate. Perhaps it could be encouraged by awarding an extra (innovation? or EA cr 1?) point for starting modeling in schematic design.
Or, perhaps the credit could be restructured similar to the CX credits where in order to get the enhanced CX credits, you have to have the CX agent involved early in the design. In some ways, the current set up already does this though with the progress points
for increased levels of saving. Quite frankly, if you are going for 50% savings, you're not gonig to get there unless you start modeling really early in the process.<br>
<br>
I also think prescribing a certain minimum number of ECMs to look at is inappropriate and would probably have the adverse effect of discouraging energy modeling. The appropriate number of ECMs is highly project dependent - based on building size, scope, complexity,
type, level of LEED certification shooting for, and not least of all the owner's budget. Let's face it, the vast majority of bldgs out there and that consume most of the energy in the US are (strip) malls, grocery stores, restaurants etc. These projects
barely event have a schematic, design and CD phase. While we all love to work on the exotic, platinum level, cutting edge, bldgs that are likely to have a large budget for design, these are not the majority of bldgs consuming energy. I think we should be
doing more to encourage modeling and energy savings amongst the every day projects than the "sexy" projects. It seems to me the best way to do this is to offer incentives in this direction in lieu of prescriptive requirements that could discourage/put off
smaller projects from even attempting to incorporate modeling. <br>
<br>
Julia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Marcus Sheffer <<a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Fri, May 13, 2011 8:16:56 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">If anyone has any good ideas about how to structure the LEED credits to end the practice of validation models at the end and encourage/require
design phase modeling the folks on the USGBC EA TAG would love to hear them. The current proposed credit language from the first public comment phase is listed below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">NC, CS, SCHOOLS, RETAIL, WAREHOUSE & DISTRIBUTION CENTERS, HOSPITALITY</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">Establish an energy performance target no later than the schematic design phase. The target must be established as kBTU per square foot-year
of source energy use. This target must be mapped on the same scale as the baseline and proposed buildings, if the project follows Option 1.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">OPTION 1. Whole Building Energy Simulation
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">Analyze a minimum of at least nine efficiency measures during the design process and account for the results in design decision-making.
Analysis can include energy simulation of efficiency opportunities, application of past energy simulation analyses for similar projects to the project, or application of published data from energy analyses performed for similar projects to the project (such
as AEDGs).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">A minimum of six energy efficiency measures focused on load reduction strategies appropriate for the facility must be analyzed. This
analysis must be performed during the schematic design phase.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">A minimum of three energy efficiency measures focused on HVAC related strategies must be analyzed (passive measures are acceptable).
This analysis must be performed before the conclusion of the design development phase.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">The results of the analysis must be summarized in a brief report or memorandum.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The next version of LEED will be going out for public comment again in July, I think, so please comment formally as well as discussing
here.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Marcus Sheffer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D">1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:717-292-2636" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>,
</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com" target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> John Aulbach [mailto:<a href="mailto:jra_sac@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jra_sac@yahoo.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; Marcus Sheffer<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out there..older than dirt, eh?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling where you compare 20 walls and 40 windows types (well, it seemed that way). Correct me if I am wrong, but a Base model must be built
to comply with a certain level of ASHRAE 90.1 (now up to 2010 ??). With all of the nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going to build the model from scrathc and put in all the relevant baseline data in by hand. And, by the way, the ASHRAE baseline model might
be an entirely different system. I am just completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE 90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC was screwe chillers, whereas the Actual building was packaged units with Turbocor compressors (ask me how I did that).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A 40,000 sf office or a 500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out after the modeling has been done. But I would not do anything of this type in under 120 hours, preferably 160 hours. If
the client thinks he can do better, let him.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Contingency, contingency.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">John A.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Carol Gardner <<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<br>
</span><br>
Marcus,<br>
<br>
You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP).
<br>
<br>
Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was worrisome. What made
it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to how or if they were practicing quality control.
We hoped that by creating a path to certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look for in their modelers.<br>
<br>
If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED Gold building and I'm going
to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good
for?<br>
<br>
So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily searchable.
<br>
<br>
So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.<br>
<br>
It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to be led around to rethinking
that and to be reminded that GIGO.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Carol<br>
<br>
<br>
Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <<a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80 hours.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to why we model – it is to guide design decisions!
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the potential client about
the purpose of modeling.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all the benefits. Too
often the “market” transforms only based on a least first cost denominator basis that results in little real transformation. Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any energy, and just circumvents the purpose behind LEED.
(the next version actually requires design phase modeling!)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Any “modeler” who does only final models without attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed out of the corp” in my
humble opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go up against the
“modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far less time. So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work so that they can compare fees on a level playing field? It is unfortunate that we are even having a discussion about
doing modeling work in opposition to its purpose.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Sorry for the rant but I feel better now.
</span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Marcus Sheffer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D">1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:717-292-2636" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>,
</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com/" target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Demba Ndiaye<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Omar Delgado; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Omar,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and
any review you may have to respond to later.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">HTH,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">_______________</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Demba NDIAYE</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Omar Delgado<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Greetings everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Can you shed any light on this issue?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks in advance!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span lang="ES-PR" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus">Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus">Vice President</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="color:#FF8000">Ener</span>Mech</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">PMB 340</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">130 Winston Churchill Ave.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="ES-PR" style="font-size:10.0pt">San Juan, PR 00926-6018</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="ES-PR" style="font-size:10.0pt">Cel.
<a href="tel:%28787%29%20224-6537" target="_blank">(787) 224-6537</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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