<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000099'>Energy Modeling Accuracy: It depends on the required level of accuracy. It can be done in one hours or even less, and could take two months with extensive calibrating and preferably field data monitoring for calibration. Same thing with the experience of the modeler: It might not require any experience at all or a modeler must be expert in mechanical system, heat transfer, moisture transfer, lighting deign, etc, and specializations in certain parts of energy modeling. Since LEED does not have staff to check or verify the level of modeling accuracy, I think LEED requires modeling just to satisfy getting points. <br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "Steve Beck" <Steve.Beck@lechase.com><br>To: "Carol Gardner" <cmg750@gmail.com>, sheffer@energyopportunities.com<br>Cc: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 8:17:34 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<br><br>
<div><span class="765221412-13052011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">SOOOO
ON TARGET!!!! Unfortunatley in NY, NYSERDA exacerbates the issue because they
get owners to use their TA's for modeling and just cover the cost of the final
(and the owner's aren't knowledgable enough to understand what they are
getting) completely defeating the real benefit of the model; an iterative
process to guide the design. </font></span></div><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left" lang="en-us">
<hr>
<font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol
Gardner<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 5:59 PM<br><b>To:</b>
sheffer@energyopportunities.com<br><b>Cc:</b>
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model
Cost<br></font><br></div>
<div></div>Marcus,<br><br>You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with
ASHRAE to create a BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling
Professional (BEMP). <br><br>Some of us who have been in the field for awhile
began to worry a couple of years ago when so many new energy modelers began
appearing on the listserv with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of
training and experience that was worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they
didn't seem to realize that they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't
appear to be pursuing training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we
were uncertain as to how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped
that by creating a path to certification that we would give clients one more
qualification to look for in their modelers.<br><br>If you have been in this
industry for any length of time, and by industry I mean the overall construction
industry, you know that you don't get a lot of chances if your work doesn't pan
out. If your energy model says I have a LEED Gold building and I'm going to save
$4,000/year and what I really get is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going
to be happy. So, I will probably not give you any more work but, even worse for
all of us, I'll start expressing doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is
it good for?<br><br>So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE
Handbooks and technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We
can find any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available,
and easily searchable. <br><br>So now we are so good we can do these models in
40-80 hours. Really? Not me and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except
you, John Aulbach. So I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to
something.<br><br>It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to
educate our clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they
think they are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in
120 hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that
GIGO.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Carol<br><br><br>Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM,
Marcus Sheffer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">In our experience a final
model, done right, would take about 80 hours.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">WARNING - frustrated modeling
rant to follow:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Doing just a final model
however completely misses the point as to why we model - it is to guide design
decisions! </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">If I saw this RFP and all it
asked me for was a model to determine LEED points, during or after design, I
would try to educate the potential client about the purpose of
modeling.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Unfortunately too many
projects pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum when it comes to modeling
and almost completely missing all the benefits. Too often the "market"
transforms only based on a least first cost denominator basis that results in
little real transformation. Doing models to determine LEED points does
not transform the market, save any energy, and just circumvents the purpose
behind LEED. (the next version actually requires design phase
modeling!)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Any "modeler" who does only
final models without attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea
should be "drummed out of the corp" in my humble opinion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">The problem is that if you
respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more hours to really do the design
phase modeling right, you will go up against the "modeler" who claims to be
able to do it in far less time. So how do we get the folks who issue the
RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work so that they can compare fees on a
level playing field? It is unfortunate that we are even having a
discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to its purpose.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Sorry for the rant but I feel
better now. </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; COLOR: #1f497d">J</span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Marcus
Sheffer</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Energy
Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">1200 E
Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"><a href="about:blank" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>,
</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com" target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Demba Ndiaye<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM<br><b>To:</b>
Omar Delgado; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span></p></div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Omar,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">I would expect, for a building
this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours
include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and any review you may have to respond
to later.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Now, given that you have never
done a LEED model, it will take you more time, possibly up to 40 more
hours.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">HTH,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">_______________</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d">Demba NDIAYE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Omar Delgado<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM<br><b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim]
Energy Model Cost</span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greetings everyone,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for
a LEED project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes.
However, I received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the
LEED-NC Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">price for this model since I'm going to have to use
Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort
this will take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can you shed any light on this issue?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks in advance!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Papyrus; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang="ES-PR">Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP
BD&C</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Papyrus; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Vice
President</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR: #ff8000">Ener</span></b><b><span>Mech</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PMB 340</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">130 Winston Churchill
Ave.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang="ES-PR">San Juan, PR
00926-6018</span><span lang="ES-PR"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang="ES-PR">Cel. <a href="about:blank" target="_blank">(787)
224-6537</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"><a href="http://odelgado@enermechpr.com" target="_blank">odelgado@enermechpr.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"><a href="mailto:info@enermechpr.com" target="_blank">info@enermechpr.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.enermechpr.com/" target="_blank"><span lang="ES-PR">www.enermechpr.com</span></a><span lang="ES-PR"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #74b230; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><img src="cid:765221412@13052011-1BE5" alt="cid:image004.gif@01CAF34A.CAB15830" border="0" height="21" width="22"> <i>Please consider your environmental responsibility
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<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoHeader"><span style="COLOR: #006600; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><strong><font face="Calibri">Dr. Hussein Abaza, Assistant Professor<!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /--><o:p></o:p></font></strong></span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoHeader"><span style="COLOR: #006600; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><strong><font face="Calibri">Construction Management Department <o:p></o:p></font></strong></span></p>
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<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoHeader"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri">Website: </font><a href="http://www.spsu.edu/cost"><font face="Calibri">www.spsu.edu/cost</font></a><font color="#000000"><font face="Calibri"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Tel: 678-915-3719 Fax: 678-915-4966<o:p></o:p></font></font></span></p>
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