<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Carol, to add to the comment about modeling certifications, lets not forget you can only manage that which can be measured!</div><div><br></div><div>There are two parts to this which we are missing before we can rest easy about our models accurately reflecting the mechanical design!</div><div><br></div><div>The first is the creation of a modeling handbook in addition to the ASHRAE handbooks providing documented modeling methodologies. Until we have this in place, even two experienced and 'certified' modelers will yield different simulation results when different modeling methods are used for the same systems.<br><br></div><div>The second item is the accuracy of the modeling tool. How can a model be accurately reflecting a mechanical design when any of the systems designed does not having corresponding mathematical software models and the model is a quilt of 'thermodynamical equivalents'? Unless your work consists of standard air distribution systems, or you are using EnergyPlus or TRNSYS, the majority of models created for LEED certification in DOE2 are still comparitive approximations at best, and just wrong at worst! I personally feel if we all had to purchase annual subscriptions to eQUEST, maybe our friends in California would be able to dedicate more resources to aid their development efforts_ <span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "> </span></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.285156); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.21875); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.21875);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.289062); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.222656); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.222656); ">Arpan Bakshi, LEED AP BD+C</span></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.285156); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.21875); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.21875);">YRG sustainability</span></div></div><div><br>On May 12, 2011, at 5:59 PM, Carol Gardner <<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com">cmg750@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Marcus,<br><br>You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP). <br><br>Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a path to certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look for in their modelers.<br>
<br>If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?<br>
<br>So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily searchable. <br>
<br>So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.<br>
<br>It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that GIGO.<br>
<br>Cheers,<br><br>Carol<br><br><br>Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com"><a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a></a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">In our experience a final model,
done right, would take about 80 hours.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">WARNING – frustrated modeling
rant to follow:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Doing just a final model however
completely misses the point as to why we model – it is to guide design
decisions! </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If I saw this RFP and all it
asked me for was a model to determine LEED points, during or after design, I
would try to educate the potential client about the purpose of modeling.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Unfortunately too many projects
pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum when it comes to modeling and almost
completely missing all the benefits. Too often the “market” transforms only
based on a least first cost denominator basis that results in little real
transformation. Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform the
market, save any energy, and just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the
next version actually requires design phase modeling!)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Any “modeler” who does only
final models without attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should
be “drummed out of the corp” in my humble opinion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The problem is that if you
respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more hours to really do the design phase
modeling right, you will go up against the “modeler” who claims to be able to
do it in far less time. So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask
for a proper scope of work so that they can compare fees on a level playing
field? It is unfortunate that we are even having a discussion about doing
modeling work in opposition to its purpose.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Sorry for the rant but I feel
better now. </span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Marcus Sheffer</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D">1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:717-292-2636" value="+17172922636" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>, </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com">www.sevengroup.com</a></a></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a></a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a></a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Demba
Ndiaye<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Omar Delgado; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Omar,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I would expect, for a building
this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours
include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and any review you may have to respond to
later.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Now, given that you have never
done a LEED model, it will take you more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">HTH,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">_______________</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Demba NDIAYE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a></a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a></a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Omar
Delgado<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greetings everyone,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for
a LEED project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes.
However, I received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the
LEED-NC Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix
G (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort
this will take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can you shed any light on this issue?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks in advance!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus" lang="ES-PR">Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus">Vice
President</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#FF8000">Ener</span></b><b><span>Mech</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">PMB
340</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">130
Winston Churchill Ave.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="ES-PR">San
Juan, PR 00926-6018</span><span lang="ES-PR"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="ES-PR">Cel.
<a href="tel:%28787%29%20224-6537" value="+17872246537" target="_blank">(787) 224-6537</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"><a href="http://odelgado@enermechpr.com" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:odelgado@enermechpr.com">odelgado@enermechpr.com</a></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"><a href="mailto:info@enermechpr.com" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:info@enermechpr.com">info@enermechpr.com</a></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.enermechpr.com/" target="_blank"><span lang="ES-PR">www.enermechpr.com</span></a><span lang="ES-PR"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#74B230"><image001.gif> <i>Please consider your
environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail</i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#1F497D">This Email is covered by the Electronics Communications Privacy
Act, 18 U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and is legally priviliged. The information in
this email is personal and confidential and is intended solely for the addressee(s).
Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not an intended
recipient, you must not read, use or disseminate the information contained in
the email. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender and may be subject to Attorney/Client privilege and/or Work Product. You
are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communications is strictly prohibited.</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Bldg-sim mailing list<br>
<a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a></a><br>
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG"><a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Carol Gardner PE<br>
<div style="visibility: hidden; left: -5000px;" id="avg_ls_inline_popup"></div><style type="text/css">#avg_ls_inline_popup{position: absolute;z-index: 9999;padding: 0px 0px;margin-left: 0px;margin-top: 0px;overflow: hidden;word-wrap: break-word;color: black;font-size: 10px;text-align: left;line-height: 130%;}</style>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Bldg-sim mailing list</span><br><span><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a></span><br><span>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG"><a href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>