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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Arpan/Omar and others, apologies for continuing to diverge on
the original thread with this sub-topic!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Marcus and other EA TAG members, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have a few ‘informal’ thoughts for discussion of the draft
language below… sorry for the wall of text, but I hope you’ll find this useful
feedback! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Overall, the process described below sounds very much like our
regular practice with certain clients, who are very into EUI metrics (2030
challenge). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think the credit language should be expanded (and perhaps the
onebuilding.org lists should be separately engaged) to suggest more examples of
what may be appropriate studies for “Preliminary modeling.” Many will not be
familiar with the process and be stuck for ideas of what to explore. In my
experience, such modeling most often focuses on early decisions regarding HVAC
system selection, envelope materials/finishes, glazing quantity/placement/orientation,
building shades (fixed and otherwise), and active/passive day lighting design.
I would note that this is often an ideal time to investigate the energy effects
of landscaping on the building, as site layout tends to be locked down early in
the design process… <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Potential for a game-killing conflict: A key feature of such
early modeling work is that much of it is very fast and “loose.” The level of
documentation/procedure involved in today’s EAc1/EAp2 validation models is something
I’d still call “intense,” and still takes up a large fraction of the time
spent altogether on an energy model. I’m not new to the game, and I’ve
certainly learned to streamline my workflow, but I’m sure there’s no place for *that*
degree of rigorous documentation in the early stages of design. I suspect many
architects would be quick to drop the idea of engaging their energy modelers
early on if they become a “ball and chain” holding up the design process. It
would appear on this draft of the language that someone has this issue in mind,
but I wanted to vocalize this concern separately so that this doesn’t get
missed!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regarding metrics: EUI, due to the 2030 challenge, is the
driving force causing local architects to engage us so early on projects, and
for that I have to give it props... While metrics like EUI & Carbon
footprint may be the best metric for measuring impact on polar bear habitats (?),
the best metric with regard to most building owners, and their perception of
the “validity” of the whole process, is unquestionably utility bills. I wouldn’t
discourage the use of alternative metrics, but I’d caution against requiring any
alternative metrics that may be at odds with the owner’s best interests...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>5.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Validation models based on the construction documents (as they
exist today) are not a bad thing. They are necessary to prevent value
engineering from decimating an otherwise great building towards the end of
design. I would be wary of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If
preliminary modeling is going to be incorporated into LEED, it should start out
as either as a prerequisite or as a separate credit (perhaps pulling points
from the large pool available under EAc1)… not as a replacement of the
validation model. At some point in the future, they may become one and the
same credit, but I think standards broader than 90.1 Appendix G will need to be
written and established first, which incorporate practices and procedures for preliminary
modeling (as others are saying).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>6.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I LIKE the inclusion of the ability to use past studies/design.
This mirrors real-world practice and permits/encourages proven design to carry
into multiple projects. Keep that! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>7.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I LIKE the focus being on the analysis, not the decisions made.
This also reflects real-world decision making, which always balances budget and
other constraints against relative energy impact.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>8.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Julia’s concern regarding prescribing a set # of
studies/analyses is pertinent and deserves consideration. Not all projects
require a huge investment of time in preliminary studies, and not all projects
would benefit… then again, these sorts of studies sometimes cause design teams
to learn something they didn’t set out to explore. The bar has to be set
somewhere, and I can’t think of a better alternative than a minimum number of
studies/iterations per building area (envelope/glazing/HVAC options, etc…).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>To the broader concern of inefficient strip mall/prototype projects
– I’d agree LEED likely isn’t the tool to reign that issue in… Developers award
this sort of work to design teams who are fast and efficient at cranking out a
design that will pass review and minimize first costs/CA. They don’t budget
for weeks on quality energy modeling. The only effective tools to drive down
such “fire-and-forget” projects are the prescriptive energy codes, and their effective/actual
enforcement by local reviewers. Those codes and their adoption/enforcement
drive the market to produce better products at an economical price point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hope that helps!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image002.jpg@01CC1148.D7DE7660" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Julia
Beabout<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 9:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> sheffer@energyopportunities.com; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Omar,<br>
This is cracking me up. I don't think I've ever seen this much traffic on
one issue! LOL.<br>
Regarding the manhours for a LEED model - my opinion is that the amount of time
has much more to do with the level of certification the project is going for, at
what point the modeling services are engaged in the design, and the type and
complexity of the building (systems). That's not to say the number of
manhours is completely independent of building size (square footage), but its
not particularly sensitive to it. I find that that there is a high
"low" and low "high" for modeling. In other words,
it's hard to complete an energy model in less than 60-80 hours (all said and
done - paperwork, LEED responses etc), but it rarely take more than 250
hours. (Although, some rare complex projects going for platinmum could
take up to 350 hours). Like others, I find the norm for a reasonably
complex bldg going for LEED silver or gold typically requires between 120 and
160 hours. <br>
<br>
Marcus <br>
Here's my two cents on below. I will look for the public comment period as
well. Thanks for the heads up.<br>
I think the idea of incentivizing modeling early in the design is a great idea,
but I think requiring it is completely inappropriate. Perhaps it could be
encouraged by awarding an extra (innovation? or EA cr 1?) point for starting
modeling in schematic design. Or, perhaps the credit could be
restructured similar to the CX credits where in order to get the enhanced CX
credits, you have to have the CX agent involved early in the design. In
some ways, the current set up already does this though with the progress points
for increased levels of saving. Quite frankly, if you are going for 50%
savings, you're not gonig to get there unless you start modeling really early in
the process.<br>
<br>
I also think prescribing a certain minimum number of ECMs to look at is
inappropriate and would probably have the adverse effect of discouraging energy
modeling. The appropriate number of ECMs is highly project dependent -
based on building size, scope, complexity, type, level of LEED certification
shooting for, and not least of all the owner's budget. Let's face it, the
vast majority of bldgs out there and that consume most of the energy in the US
are (strip) malls, grocery stores, restaurants etc. These projects barely
event have a schematic, design and CD phase. While we all love to work on
the exotic, platinum level, cutting edge, bldgs that are likely to have a large
budget for design, these are not the majority of bldgs consuming energy.
I think we should be doing more to encourage modeling and energy savings
amongst the every day projects than the "sexy" projects. It
seems to me the best way to do this is to offer incentives in this direction in
lieu of prescriptive requirements that could discourage/put off smaller
projects from even attempting to incorporate modeling. <br>
<br>
Julia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Will Mak<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 8:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> sheffer@energyopportunities.com; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Do you know where we can get a copy of the existing draft? I’d
like to look more into the new wordage for EAp2/EAc1 and how energy modeling
will have to evolve once that new rating system is released.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#C75B12'>William Mak, LEED Green Associate</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mechanical Design Engineer</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#C75B12'>EPSTEIN</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:black'>Architecture<br>
Interiors<br>
Engineering<br>
Construction<br>
<br>
600 West Fulton Street<br>
Chicago, Illinois 60661-1259<br>
<br>
D: (312) 429-8116<br>
F: (312) 429-8800</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:black'>E:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#0070C0'> <a href="mailto:wmak@epsteinglobal.com">wmak@epsteinglobal.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
W:</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#C75B12'> <a href="http://www.epsteinglobal.com/"><span style='color:
#C75B12'>www.epsteinglobal.com</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#00B050'>þ</span><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";color:black'>
Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider
the environment before printing this e-mail.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Sheffer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 7:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If anyone has any good ideas about how to structure the LEED
credits to end the practice of validation models at the end and
encourage/require design phase modeling the folks on the USGBC EA TAG would
love to hear them. The current proposed credit language from the first
public comment phase is listed below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'>NC, CS, SCHOOLS, RETAIL, WAREHOUSE & DISTRIBUTION CENTERS,
HOSPITALITY<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'>Establish an energy performance target no later than the
schematic design phase. The target must be established as kBTU per square
foot-year of source energy use. This target must be mapped on the same scale as
the baseline and proposed buildings, if the project follows Option 1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'>OPTION 1. Whole Building Energy Simulation <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'>Analyze a minimum of at least nine efficiency measures during
the design process and account for the results in design decision-making.
Analysis can include energy simulation of efficiency opportunities, application
of past energy simulation analyses for similar projects to the project, or
application of published data from energy analyses performed for similar projects
to the project (such as AEDGs).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'>A minimum of six energy efficiency measures focused on load
reduction strategies appropriate for the facility must be analyzed. This
analysis must be performed during the schematic design phase.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'>A minimum of three energy efficiency measures focused on HVAC
related strategies must be analyzed (passive measures are acceptable). This
analysis must be performed before the conclusion of the design development
phase.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'>The results of the analysis must be summarized in a brief report
or memorandum.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The next version of LEED will be going out for public comment
again in July, I think, so please comment formally as well as discussing here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:green'>Marcus Sheffer</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:green'>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>717-292-2636, </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><a
href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com"><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> John Aulbach
[mailto:jra_sac@yahoo.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; Marcus Sheffer<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out
there..older than dirt, eh?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling
where you compare 20 walls and 40 windows types (well, it seemed that
way). Correct me if I am wrong, but a Base model must be built to comply
with a certain level of ASHRAE 90.1 (now up to 2010 ??). With all of the
nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going to build the model from scrathc and put in
all the relevant baseline data in by hand. And, by the way, the ASHRAE
baseline model might be an entirely different system. I am just
completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE 90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC was
screwe chillers, whereas the Actual building was packaged units with Turbocor
compressors (ask me how I did that).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A
40,000 sf office or a 500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out
after the modeling has been done. But I would not do anything of this type in
under 120 hours, preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can do better,
let him.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Contingency, contingency.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>John A.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Carol Gardner
<cmg750@gmail.com><br>
<b>To:</b> sheffer@energyopportunities.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<br>
</span><br>
Marcus,<br>
<br>
You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP
certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP). <br>
<br>
Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of
years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with
questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was
worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that
they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing
training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to
how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a
path to certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look
for in their modelers.<br>
<br>
If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I
mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of
chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED
Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED
Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not
give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing
doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?<br>
<br>
So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and
technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find any
topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily
searchable. <br>
<br>
So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and
I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going
to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.<br>
<br>
It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients
about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting
the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to
be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that GIGO.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Carol<br>
<br>
<br>
Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <<a
href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>In our experience a final model, done right, would take
about 80 hours.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Doing just a final model however completely misses the
point as to why we model – it is to guide design decisions! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to
determine LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the
potential client about the purpose of modeling.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only
doing the minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all
the benefits. Too often the “market” transforms only based on a least
first cost denominator basis that results in little real transformation.
Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any
energy, and just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version
actually requires design phase modeling!)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Any “modeler” who does only final models without
attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed
out of the corp” in my humble opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120
or 160 or more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go
up against the “modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far less time.
So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work
so that they can compare fees on a level playing field? It is unfortunate
that we are even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to
its purpose.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. </span><span
style='font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='color:#1F497D'>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Marcus Sheffer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville,
PA 17365</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'>717-292-2636, </span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span
style='font-size:7.5pt'>sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com/"
target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Demba Ndiaye<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Omar Delgado; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Omar,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>I would expect, for a building this size, approximately
40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED
documentation, and any review you may have to respond to later.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will
take you more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>HTH,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>_______________</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'>Demba NDIAYE</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Omar Delgado<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Greetings
everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I
have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project. Every
energy model I've done so far has been for <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>existing
buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received an RFP to
model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>that's
currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver certification.
I really have no idea what would be a fair <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>price
for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to
evaluate the difference between the base <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>and
proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take. I know
the procedure, just haven't done it before.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Can
you shed any light on this issue?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks
in advance!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span
lang=ES-PR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus'>Omar A. Delgado Colón,
P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus'>Vice President</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='color:#FF8000'>Ener</span>Mech</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>PMB 340</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>130 Winston Churchill Ave.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='font-size:10.0pt'>San Juan, PR 00926-6018</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR style='font-size:10.0pt'>Cel. (787) 224-6537</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR><a href="http://odelgado@enermechpr.com" target="_blank">odelgado@enermechpr.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR><a href="mailto:info@enermechpr.com" target="_blank">info@enermechpr.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a
href="http://www.enermechpr.com/" target="_blank"><span lang=ES-PR>www.enermechpr.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=ES-PR> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#74B230'><img border=0 width=22 height=21
id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image003.gif@01CC1148.D7DE7660"
alt="cid:image004.gif@01CAF34A.CAB15830"> <i>Please consider your
environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail</i></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE<o:p></o:p></p>
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