To Nick's point, I feel the energy target is most valuable when coupled with some sort of Cost Benefit Analysis. If there is a way to incorporate such a study into the language, we have an energy target the Owner knows he/she can afford and high performance strategies will not be value engineered out when the LEED model is built.<div>
<br><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Nick Caton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Not to be a jerk, but to ask an honest question: what is the
point? I’ve been involved with “established energy target” projects and never
really picked up on the logic behind it – I would appreciate a layman’s
explanation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Put another way: If you select an arbitrary EUI or watts per
square foot at the earliest stages of design, what have you gained in design
process? If/when a project “meets the goal” mid-design, are future design
decisions supposed to de-emphasize energy impact (no!)? If on the other hand,
a project finds that target unreasonable down the road, what then? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Not setting a mile-marker like this implies designing the best
building you can given the time/budget available and any other constraints…
that seems more likely to result in the best end-result to me.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">To draw analogy, if design of a LEED (or any energy-conscious)
project is like planning a road trip from Kansas to Florida, setting EUI goals seems
something like choosing a rest stop by throwing a dart at the map blindfolded. It
doesn’t help you get to your destination any more efficiently, it may be far
out of the way, and now you’ve got a hole in the wall… what was the point?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Okay, maybe a weak analogy – chalking it up to a very long week
=). Honestly, I’d appreciate someone laying the value behind this approach – I’m
expect the logic does exist, and I just haven’t yet seen the light!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><img width="119" height="37" src="cid:image002.jpg@01CC118F.7968F960" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="color:#2D4D5E"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">direct <a href="tel:913%20344.0036" value="+19133440036" target="_blank">913 344.0036</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">fax <a href="tel:913%20345.0617" value="+19133450617" target="_blank">913 345.0617</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"> </span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus
Sheffer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 4:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Hussein Abaza'; Bill Bishop</span></p><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost - best design doesn'tequalmost
LEED points</div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Agreed. The new credit language for the next version of
LEED does ask project teams to establish an absolute performance goal.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Marcus Sheffer</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D">1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:717-292-2636" value="+17172922636" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>, </span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com" target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Hussein
Abaza<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 10:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bill Bishop<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost - best design doesn't equalmost
LEED points</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#000099">Could any one advice why LEED would not put the base design as
Watt per square foot, or per occupant, or per hotel bed etc. so the
Architecture becomes more innovative early in the design to save energy?<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Bill Bishop" <<a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>><br>
To: "Arpan Bakshi" <<a href="mailto:arpanbakshi@gmail.com" target="_blank">arpanbakshi@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:11:30 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost - best design doesn't equal
most LEED points<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Arpan,</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Based on the Weidt Group paper, I’m guessing you’re emphasizing
architectural considerations that affect the energy cost vs. LEED points numbers.
(The paper uses window-to-wall ratios and daylighting as an example.) I would
think the goal during the programming and schematic design phases should be
energy cost, not LEED points relative to the App. G baseline. Much of the
energy cost savings vs. App. G baseline (EAc1 points) is going to come later
from the mechanical and lighting designs. The suggestions in the paper to
establish specific baseline building shapes and glazing percentages would add a
LOT more modeling time – you’d have to create two separate building geometries
for the baseline and proposed models, not to mention different zoning patterns,
space types, lighting power per space etc.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">For mechanical design, once the size and programming of the
project is established, the baseline model properties are pretty well set,
unless you consider fuel-switching and go between baseline systems 1/3/5/7 to
systems 2/4/6/8. One exception I can think of for a design decision that
results in higher energy cost but better comparison with the App. G baseline is
higher ventilation rates combined with heat recovery in the proposed and no
heat recovery in the baseline.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Bill</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="496" height="123" src="cid:image003.jpg@01CC118F.7968F960" alt="Signature in jpg form"></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Arpan Bakshi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 9:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">Marcus, thank you incorporating
this language.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#000099">The
one scenario we often see in our design guidance work is that a proposed design
when compared with other design alternates does not necessarily provided the
largest energy savings when compared against its own baseline case model. It is
difficult to make a recommendation as consultants when we want to present the
Owner with both real energy cost savings without compromising their LEED
certification level targets. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">A recent paper presented by the
Weidt Group at SimBuild touched on this issue:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"><a href="http://www.ibpsa.us/pub/simbuild2010/technicalPresentations/SB10-PPT-TS02A-03-Baker.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ibpsa.us/pub/simbuild2010/technicalPresentations/SB10-PPT-TS02A-03-Baker.pdf</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="color:#000099">Arpan
Bakshi, LEED AP BD+C</span></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="color:#000099">YRG
sustainability</span></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#000099"><br>
On May 13, 2011, at 8:16 AM, "Marcus Sheffer" <<a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">If
anyone has any good ideas about how to structure the LEED credits to end the
practice of validation models at the end and encourage/require design phase
modeling the folks on the USGBC EA TAG would love to hear them. The
current proposed credit language from the first public comment phase is listed
below.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">NC, CS,
SCHOOLS, RETAIL, WAREHOUSE & DISTRIBUTION CENTERS, HOSPITALITY</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">Establish
an energy performance target no later than the schematic design phase. The
target must be established as kBTU per square foot-year of source energy use.
This target must be mapped on the same scale as the baseline and proposed
buildings, if the project follows Option 1.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">OPTION
1. Whole Building Energy Simulation </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">Analyze
a minimum of at least nine efficiency measures during the design process and
account for the results in design decision-making. Analysis can include energy
simulation of efficiency opportunities, application of past energy simulation
analyses for similar projects to the project, or application of published data
from energy analyses performed for similar projects to the project (such as
AEDGs).</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">A
minimum of six energy efficiency measures focused on load reduction strategies
appropriate for the facility must be analyzed. This analysis must be performed
during the schematic design phase.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">A
minimum of three energy efficiency measures focused on HVAC related strategies
must be analyzed (passive measures are acceptable). This analysis must be
performed before the conclusion of the design development phase.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#76923C">The
results of the analysis must be summarized in a brief report or memorandum.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The
next version of LEED will be going out for public comment again in July, I
think, so please comment formally as well as discussing here.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Marcus
Sheffer</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Energy
Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D">1200 E Camping
Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:717-292-2636" value="+17172922636" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>,
</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com" target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099"> John
Aulbach [mailto:<a href="mailto:jra_sac@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jra_sac@yahoo.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; Marcus Sheffer<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out
there..older than dirt, eh?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling
where you compare 20 walls and 40 windows types (well, it seemed that
way). Correct me if I am wrong, but a Base model must be built to comply
with a certain level of ASHRAE 90.1 (now up to 2010 ??). With all of the
nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going to build the model from scrathc and put in
all the relevant baseline data in by hand. And, by the way, the ASHRAE
baseline model might be an entirely different system. I am just completing
an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE 90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC was screwe
chillers, whereas the Actual building was packaged units with Turbocor
compressors (ask me how I did that).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A
40,000 sf office or a 500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out
after the modeling has been done. But I would not do anything of this type in
under 120 hours, preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can do better,
let him.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">Contingency, contingency.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">John A.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">
<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099"> Carol
Gardner <<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<br>
</span><span style="color:#000099"><br>
Marcus,<br>
<br>
You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP
certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP). <br>
<br>
Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of
years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with
questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was
worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that
they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing
training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to
how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a
path to certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look
for in their modelers.<br>
<br>
If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I
mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of
chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED
Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED
Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not
give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing
doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?<br>
<br>
So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and
technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find any
topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily
searchable. <br>
<br>
So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and
I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going
to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.<br>
<br>
It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients
about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting
the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to
be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that GIGO.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Carol<br>
<br>
<br>
Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <<a href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" target="_blank">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">In our experience a final model, done right, would take
about 80 hours.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Doing just a final model however completely misses the
point as to why we model – it is to guide design decisions! </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to
determine LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the
potential client about the purpose of modeling.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only
doing the minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all
the benefits. Too often the “market” transforms only based on a least
first cost denominator basis that results in little real transformation.
Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any
energy, and just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version
actually requires design phase modeling!)</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Any “modeler” who does only final models without
attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed
out of the corp” in my humble opinion.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120
or 160 or more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go
up against the “modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far less time.
So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work
so that they can compare fees on a level playing field? It is unfortunate
that we are even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to
its purpose.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. </span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Marcus Sheffer</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:green">Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D">1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville,
PA 17365</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:717-292-2636" value="+17172922636" target="_blank">717-292-2636</a>, </span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">sheffer@sevengroup.com</span></a></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.sevengroup.com" target="_blank">www.sevengroup.com</a></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Demba Ndiaye<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Omar Delgado; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Omar,</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I would expect, for a building this size, approximately
40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED
documentation, and any review you may have to respond to later.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will
take you more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">HTH,</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">_______________</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Demba NDIAYE</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Omar Delgado<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">Greetings everyone,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model
for a LEED project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes.
However, I received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the
LEED-NC Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">price for this model since I'm going to have to use
Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort
this will take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">Can you shed any light on this issue?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099">Thanks in advance!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="ES-PR" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus;color:#000099">Omar A.
Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C</span></i><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Papyrus;color:#000099">Vice President</span></i><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#FF8000">Ener</span><span style="color:#000099">Mech</span></b><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">PMB 340</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">130 Winston Churchill Ave.</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">San Juan, PR 00926-6018</span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#000099">Cel. <a href="tel:%28787%29%20224-6537" value="+17872246537" target="_blank">(787) 224-6537</a></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR" style="color:#000099"><a href="mailto:odelgado@enermechpr.com" target="_blank">odelgado@enermechpr.com</a></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES-PR" style="color:#000099"><a href="mailto:info@enermechpr.com" target="_blank">info@enermechpr.com</a></span><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#000099"><a href="http://www.enermechpr.com/" target="_blank"><span lang="ES-PR">www.enermechpr.com</span></a></span></p>
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<br>
-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE</span></p>
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<p><strong><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#006600">Dr. Hussein Abaza, Assistant Professor</span></strong><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#006600">Construction Management Department </span></strong><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#006600">SCHOOL OF ARCHITECTURE’</span></strong><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#006600">CIVIL ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY</span></strong><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#006600"> And CONSTRUCTION</span></strong><span style="color:#000099"></span></p>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div><br></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><p>Arpan Bakshi,<span style="border-collapse:collapse;font-family:arial, sans-serif"><i> </i>LEED AP BD+C</span><span style="color:rgb(64, 64, 64);font-size:12px;font-weight:normal"></span></p>
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