<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV>OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out there..older than dirt, eh?</DIV>
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<DIV>I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling where you compare 20 walls and 40 windows types (well, it seemed that way). Correct me if I am wrong, but a Base model must be built to comply with a certain level of ASHRAE 90.1 (now up to 2010 ??). With all of the nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going to build the model from scrathc and put in all the relevant baseline data in by hand. And, by the way, the ASHRAE baseline model might be an entirely different system. I am just completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE 90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC was screwe chillers, whereas the Actual building was packaged units with Turbocor compressors (ask me how I did that).</DIV>
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<DIV>It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A 40,000 sf office or a 500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.</DIV>
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<DIV>I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out after the modeling has been done. But I would not do anything of this type in under 120 hours, preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can do better, let him.</DIV>
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<DIV>Contingency, contingency.</DIV>
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<DIV>We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..</DIV>
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<DIV>John A.<BR></DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Carol Gardner <cmg750@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> sheffer@energyopportunities.com<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost<BR></FONT><BR>Marcus,<BR><BR>You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP). <BR><BR>Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that they were as inexperienced as they
were; they didn't appear to be pursuing training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a path to certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look for in their modelers.<BR><BR>If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?<BR><BR>So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult
stuff. We can find any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily searchable. <BR><BR>So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.<BR><BR>It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that GIGO.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Carol<BR><BR><BR>Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:sheffer@energyopportunities.com">sheffer@energyopportunities.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80 hours.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to why we model – it is to guide design decisions! </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the potential client about the purpose of modeling.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all the benefits. Too often the “market” transforms only based on a least first cost denominator basis that results in little real transformation. Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any energy, and just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version actually requires design phase modeling!)</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Any “modeler” who does only final models without attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed out of the corp” in my humble opinion.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go up against the “modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far less time. So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work so that they can compare fees on a level playing field? It is unfortunate that we are even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to its purpose.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; COLOR: #1f497d">J</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Marcus Sheffer</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"><A rel=nofollow>717-292-2636</A>, </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><A href="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:sheffer@sevengroup.com"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">sheffer@sevengroup.com</SPAN></A></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A> [mailto:<A href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Demba Ndiaye<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Omar Delgado; <A href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Omar,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and any review you may have to respond to later.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">HTH,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">_______________</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Demba NDIAYE</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A> [mailto:<A href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Omar Delgado<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal>Greetings everyone,</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building</P>
<P class=MsoNormal>that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Can you shed any light on this issue?</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Thanks in advance!</P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Papyrus; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=ES-PR>Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C</SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Papyrus; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Vice President</SPAN></I></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=ES-PR>Cel. <A rel=nofollow>(787) 224-6537</A></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Bldg-sim mailing list<BR>http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org<BR>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <A href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Carol Gardner PE<BR>
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