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<p>Thanks Doug,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My oversight. You can certainly put EnergyPlus on the list. This would help some things, yet cause pain for others. It would help for the internal radiation network, better convection models, and might be useful for its nodal air flow analysis.
</p>
<p> </p>
<p>However, I believe the daylighting model in DOE-2 is a stronger model, but not as strong as DAYSIM. Second, the Winklemann-Huang ground coupling in DOE-2 is still hard to beat, which would be important for an unconditioned building. Finally, if it took 24
hours to ping-pong CFD and DOE-2, it would take much longer to ping-pong EnergyPlus with CFD (perhaps Wangda's graphics processsor would help this).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Perhaps I should have said, in the U.S. one could start with a legacy DOE-2 code and modify it as a warm up. Either way, there still remains no single code in the U.S. that does it all with the most accurate algorithms, including DOE-2,
<br>
TRNSYS or EnergyPlus and/or their derivatives. I can't speak for ESPr or IES/VE, but I suspect they have their warts as well.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Jeff.</p>
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<p> </p>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Tahoma">8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=| 8=) :=') 8=)8=?<br>
<br>
Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu<br>
<br>
Professor............................................................Office Ph: 979-845-6507<br>
<br>
Department of Architecture.............................Lab Ph:979-845-6065<br>
<br>
Energy Systems Laboratory.............................FAX: 979-862-2457<br>
<br>
Texas A&M University.....................................77843-3581<br>
<br>
College Station, Texas, USA, 77843..................URL:www.esl.tamu.edu<br>
<br>
8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) :=) 8=) 8=! 8=) 8=? 8=)8=0<br>
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<div style="DIRECTION: ltr" id="divRpF7739"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] on behalf of Douglas Hittle [hittle@colostate.edu]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 24, 2011 10:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Bldg-sim] Modeling tool for daylight, Energy, Thermal comfort analysis<br>
</font><br>
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<div></div>
<div>Did I miss something? I would have started with EnergyPlus.<br>
<br>
On 4/24/11 8:49 PM, Jeff Haberl wrote:
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<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span>Hamada,
</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span>Unfortunately, you've chosen the worst possible building for analysis. There are several reasons for this.</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span>First, there is no single U.S. tool that does an accurate analysis of what you are asking for. There are some that perform simplified analysis of most of the parameters you are looking
for, but none do it all right (that I’m aware of). Some of the European codes are getting close, for example ESPr and/or IES/VE, but each has its limitations.
</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span>To estimate the thermal analysis with Visual DOE (i.e., DOE-2.1e) or EQUEST (i.e., DOE-2.2) you’d need to have at least one zone that is conditioned in order to simulate conditions
in an unconditioned space. So, although it is possible to perform such a simulation, you have to go to great lengths to do this with canned simulations such as DOE-2.1e and DOE-2.2. One successful project that did this for a Buddhist temple was done by Dr.
Sreshthaputra, which you can read about in:</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Sreshthaputra, A., Haberl, J., Andrews, M. 2004. “Improving Building Design and Operation .of a Thai Buddhist Temple,”
<i>Energy and Buildings</i>, Vol. 36, pp. 481-494. </span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Or in his thesis:</span></p>
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<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Atch Sreshthaputra, 2004. “</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Building Design and Operation for Improving Thermal Comfort
in Naturally Ventilated Buildings in a Hot and Humid Climate,” Department of Architecture, Texas A&M University.</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In this work, which was calibrated to real data from the temple, Atch created a fictitious zone that did nothing, then proceeded to model the temple as a unconditioned zone,
which worked with one exception that it did not handle the air flows. To get around this Atch ran CFD with a program that used a 3D model from the CHAM engine, then passed the airflows back to DOE-2 each hour to do the run, which calculated the dynamic heat
transfer, then back to the CFD for the next hour’s airflow, etc., (taking 24 hours to simulate 24 hours on 2003ish Pentium, not exactly fast).</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Second, you can probably get an estimate of the daylighting using DOE-2.1e or DOE-2.2 that should be accurate for and sidelights if you know the internal geometry, including
surface characteristics, since they use the split-flux method. More accurate daylighting simulations can be done with RADIANCE or annual simulations with DAYSIM, or perhaps one of the new annual variants of RADIANCE.
</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Third, true calculations of thermal comfort would require CFD and a internal radiation network (should interior surfaces get hot or cold), which further complicate things.</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span> </p>
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<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">So, it can be done, but there are only a few efforts in the literature that give solid advice on how to do this, probably more as time goes on. Getting all this in one package
is probably not there yet. Probably still a good topic for a Ph.D. thesis.</span></p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span> </p>
<p style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jeff</span></p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p> </p>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Tahoma">8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=| 8=) :=') 8=)8=?<br>
<br>
Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu" target="_blank">
FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu</a><br>
<br>
Professor............................................................Office Ph: 979-845-6507<br>
<br>
Department of Architecture.............................Lab Ph:979-845-6065<br>
<br>
Energy Systems Laboratory.............................FAX: 979-862-2457<br>
<br>
Texas A&M University.....................................77843-3581<br>
<br>
College Station, Texas, USA, 77843..................URL:www.esl.tamu.edu<br>
<br>
8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) :=) 8=) 8=! 8=) 8=? 8=)8=0<br>
</font></div>
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<div style="DIRECTION: ltr" id="divRpF938488"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] on behalf of ali hamada fakra [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fakra@univ-reunion.fr" target="_blank">fakra@univ-reunion.fr</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 21, 2011 11:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Bldg-sim] Modeling tool for daylight, Energy, Thermal comfort analysis<br>
</font><br>
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<div>
<div>Message: 2</div>
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:47:20 +0530 (IST)<br>
From: Rathna Shree <<a href="mailto:rathnashreep@yahoo.in" target="_blank">rathnashreep@yahoo.in</a>><br>
To: bldg <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Modeling tool for daylight, Energy,<span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class="Apple-tab-span"><br>
</span>Thermal<br>
<span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class="Apple-tab-span"></span>comfort analysis<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:935834.21570.qm@web95906.mail.in.yahoo.com" target="_blank">935834.21570.qm@web95906.mail.in.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear All,<br>
<br>
Can you please suggest the best modeling tool which has the capabilities to perform Daylight simulation, Thermal comfort analysis in non AC spaces of a building and Energy simulation.<br>
<br>
I am using dialux for daylight simulation, Visual Doe for Energy simulation and Transys for Thermal comfort analysis. I am inputting the same details thrice in different softwares. So is there any software which can perform all the 3 analysis in one go.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Rathnashree
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<div>------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hello Rathmashree,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I suggest you use CODYRUN. Is a french software dedicated to both research and consulting firms. You can make the 3 studies (Energy simulation, Daylight and thermal confort).that you want at the same time. For more information about this software, you
can write to Professor Harry Boyer (Founder of the software) to this mail : <a href="mailto:harry.boyer@univ-reunion.fr" target="_blank">harry.boyer@univ-reunion.fr</a> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PhD / Engineer A. H. Fakra</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
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