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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Suwon is quite right – the limitations of system
quantities per zone is a major reason we need air partitions to model actual
designs. There are a variety of other situations in which a massless partition
becomes useful…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In programs like eQuest/DOE2 which are not modeling hourly CFD
for air movement, air surfaces may also be used to approximate/enforce thermal
layering in large volumes such as a gym or an atrium, separating the “conditioned”
volume at the occupied levels from the other layers. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The ability to model air walls in place of a construction with mass
also permits the option to explore limited layout changes such as knocking down
a wall to “thermally connect” two spaces.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In summary, “artificial boundaries” can be a pretty
useful tool when one intends to model a variety of things with a higher degree
of accuracy. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It appears to me Jeff is making a broader point in the context
of the papers/experiences he is posting, using air walls / approximate zoning
as a specific case-in-point: Approximating rough partitions/zoning in an
existing building with air walls, even when the exact layout / thermal massing
of the actual partitions is known, can be sufficient, <u>even necessary</u>,
when the intent is to “fit” a model to “real” data. He’s
not suggesting thermal construction lag isn’t real or important to model
in all cases, but rather that the assumption such behavior is unaffected by un-modeled/un-measured
factors can itself be misleading.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CBC836.212E6930" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue'> </span></u><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> songsuwon
[mailto:ssw1007@hotmail.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 09, 2011 4:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com; Nick Caton<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Hi
Chris,<br>
<br>
In most building energy simulation programs including DOE-2, It is impossible
to define two different HVAC systems in one thermal
zone. Therefore, it is sometimes useful to seperate one actural zone
into two thermal zones(e.g. interior zone and perimeter zone) using an
articificial boundary like 'air wall' when an actual one zone in
existinfg building has two different systems, for example, VAV
system is for a interior zone, and fan coil unit is for a perimeter
zone. <br>
<br>
Suwon Song <br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=stopSpelling>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Date:
Wed, 9 Feb 2011 08:23:51 +0000<br>
From: chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com<br>
To: ncaton@smithboucher.com<br>
CC: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's<br>
<br>
Sorry Nick, my bad regarding the tangent. What you've described in eQuest seems
synonymous with the NoMass material in Energyplus.<br>
<br>
Perhaps I can bring it a little bit back on topic. Jeff mentions the use of Air
walls to model existing buildings. However, if you know where all the
partitions are in an <i>existing</i> building don't they introduce artificial
boundaries?<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
On 08/02/2011 19:10, Nick Caton wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This thread appears to have tangented into 3+ different
directions… if you have a new inquiry please start a new email
chain =)!</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Fransisco – you should refine your questions by specifying
which program you intend to use, or if your inquiry is of the “is there a
program that can do this?” variety. Air walls <u>in eQuest</u>/<u>DOE2</u>
behave as Suwon is describing. They are a type of interior partition and
will not model heat transfer to the exterior, regardless of their geometrical
location.</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Chris – I use eQuest/DOE2 primarily. Please refer to
recent discussion on [eQuest-users] where I attempted to sum up air wall
behavior in both layman’s and complex terms (discussion attached). </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>To my understanding DOE2/eQuest models do not model heat
transfer explicitly by either convection or radiation – all heat movement
within the model is calculated as a series of direct (conductive) transfers
between zone surfaces (interior and exterior) on an hourly basis. Air
walls are unique type of surface in that they have zero mass but a relatively
low conductivity (by default, approximately the same as a single layer of
3/8” Gypsum), however this value can be modified as may be desired.
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>To Rohini – My existing model calibration experience is
probably limited relative to others contributing – but I can share the
general observation/advice that your models can only ever be as accurate as
your gathered data, or lack thereof. An important corollary I want to
emphasize is that models ultimately serve a purpose, and that it’s
important at the beginning of any project to identify that endgame.
Sometimes it’s getting LEED points, sometimes it’s advising
new or retrofit design for existing envelopes, HVAC, and/or lighting, sometimes
it’s because there’s academics who simply want a model they can
pick up after you to tweak to perfection as time goes on… </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Defining where the model is headed in terms of intent will
permit you to define a degree/deadband of acceptable accuracy. Without
doing so, you may lose sanity/sleep to the beast before realizing you
don’t have a finish line defined.</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~Nick</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
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"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
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color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com/" target="_blank"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
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style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Francisco Massucci<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>
Is it possible to simulate an open door or a open window in a face with
outdoors boundary conditions? (only calculating heat loss or gains to the
enviroment). Example: If I apply a "infrared transparent' in a exterior
window, does it works as a open window, for energy balance calculation?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Sorry
about my english.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'>Francisco Massucci<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>On
Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:14 PM, songsuwon <<a href="mailto:ssw1007@hotmail.com">ssw1007@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Hi
all,<br>
<br>
<br>
In DOE-2 program, "air wall" is a type of interior
walls without thermal mass effect, only for thermal resistance(0.9
hr-ft2-F/btu) between zones. I think other similar simulation
programs have also the same function. <br>
<br>
Suwon Song <br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Date:
Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:40:22 -0200<br>
From: <a href="mailto:massucci@gmail.com">massucci@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Hi
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>
I would like to add a question to the list:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>
- Air wall works the same when apllied in a between zones face or in
an outdoor face?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Francisco
Massucci<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>On
Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Chris Yates <<a
href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear Jeff,</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";color:#1F497D'><br>
You mention the use of "Real walls or <b><u>air walls</u></b>"
between zones in your post. I feel this raises a question on this list that
I've already enquired on this list. I apologise for raising the issue once
more, however I did not feel that the discussion resulted in a clear conclusion
of how various simulation programs may treat "Air walls" or
"virtual partitions".</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:#1F497D'><br>
I hope you don't mind me asking: </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul type=disc>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:#1F497D'>what programs do you use mainly?</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:#1F497D'>under normal modelling practice, how would these programs
treat "air walls" with respect to</span><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>:<o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ul>
<ul type=disc>
<ul type=circle>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2'><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:
"??","serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif";color:#1F497D'>Conduction</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"??","serif";color:#1F497D'>Long-wave radiation</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"??","serif";color:#1F497D'>Short-wave radiation</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"??","serif";color:#1F497D'>Air flow</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ul>
</ul>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Many
thanks<br>
<br>
Chris</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";color:#1F497D'>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>On
05/02/2011 22:04, Jeff Haberl wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>ALSO: </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Here are a few papers that shed light on the ELF/OLF proxy method
and other findings, somewhat dated but useful:</span><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";color:black'>Haberl, J., Komor,
P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: How Daily and
Hourly Consumption Data Can Help,” <i>ASHRAE Journal, </i>Vol. 32, No. 9,
pp. 26 - 36 (September). </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";color:black'>Haberl, J., Komor,
P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: How Annual and
Monthly Consumption Data Can Help,” <i>ASHRAE Journal,</i> Vol. 32, No.
8, pp. 26 - 33 (August).</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. “Status Report on Methods for
Using Hourly, Daily and Monthly Data to Provide Useful Information on Building
Energy Use,” submitted to the New Jersey Energy Conservation Lab, Center
for Energy and Environmental Studies at Princeton University, Princeton, New
Jersey (May).</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. “Investigating An Analytical
Basis for Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Early Results from a New
Jersey Mall,” <i>Thermal Performance of the Exterior Envelopes of
Buildings IV,</i> ASHRAE, Atlanta, Georgia, pp. 302 - 331 (December). </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span lang=PT-BR style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:black'>Haberl, J., Komor, P., Haberl, J. 1989. </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";color:black'>“Investigating
An Analytical Basis for Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Results
from a New Jersey Mall,” Center for Energy and Environmental Studies
Report No. 264 (June).</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
<span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
on behalf of Jeff Haberl [<a href="mailto:jhaberl@tamu.edu">jhaberl@tamu.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 05, 2011 3:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; R B<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Rohini,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Zoning a building is still an art form. There are very few papers
that have looked into this with any rigor. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>In one thesis we did on the Zachry building, which was the basis
for the Predictor Shootout I and II, we looked at 1, 2, 5 and actual zoning on
the building. What we saw was that, in general, the centroid of the
"cloud" of data points remained about the same. However, the scatter
in the cloud became more pronounced at we added more zones.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>So, if all the zones in the floor are being operated the same, I'd
use 1, 2 or 5 zones per floor, depending on the functions of what's going on in
each zone. Real walls or air walls between the zones usually get the job done.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>The quickest way to get the light and receptacle loads on a real
building is using "blink" tests, which can be done on a Saturday,
with walkie talkies, and a data logger on the whole-building electric feed,
possibly some sub feeds. I first heard of this test from Todd Taylor at PNNL.
We've used it to help resolved motor loads, lighting loads, receptacles, etc.
Seems to work pretty well. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>There are also several ways to get the plug loads, including: by
proxy, by weather-day-type profiles, by daily readings, and a method that uses
an energy balance. The proxy methods can use square proxies for for the
occupancy based on OLF/ELF ratios, the weather-day-type method was something
that I heard about from Don Hadley at PNNL, later adopted by Bou Saada on the Forrestal
building and daycare center. The daily readings are just that, read the main
meter by eye, daily, especially during weather independent times. The energy
balance method is documented in papers by Claridge et al. at the ESL.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>There is also some encouraging work being done by Abushakra and
Reddy on ASHRAE RP 1404, now in progress and scheduled for completion later
this year. This is based on previous work by Abushakra for his Ph.D. thesis.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Hope this helps.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Jeff</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> <br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>PS: here are some helpful papers:</span><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. “A Procedure for the Performance
Evaluation of a New Commercial Building: Part I – Calibrated As-built
Simulation”, <i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 114, Pt. 2,
pp. 375-388 (June ). </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. “A Procedure for the Performance
Evaluation of a New Commercial Building: Part II – Overall Methodology
and Comparison of Results”, <i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol.
114, Pt. 2, pp. 389 – 403 (June).</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Claridge, D., Abushakra, B., Haberl, J. 2003. “Electricity
Diversity Profiles for Energy Simulation of Office Buildings (1093-RP),” <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research,</i> Vol. 110, Pt. 1 (February), pp. 365-377.</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span lang=FR style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:black'>Haberl, J., Bou-Saada, T. 1998. </span><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";color:black'>“Procedures for Calibrating
Hourly Simulation Models to Measured Building Energy and Environmental
Data,” <i>ASME Journal of Solar Energy Engineering</i>, Vol. 120, pp. 193
- 204 (August). </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span lang=FR style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:black'>Haberl, J., Bronson, D., O'Neal, D. 1995. </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";color:black'>“An Evaluation
of the Impact of Using Measured Weather Data Versus TMY Weather Data in a DOE-2
Simulation of an Existing Building in Central Texas,” <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 101, Pt.. 2, pp. 558 - 576 (June). </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Haberl, J., Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., O'Neal, D. 1993.
“Graphical Tools to help Calibrate the DOE-2 Simulation Program to
Non-weather Dependent Measured Loads,” <i>ASHRAE Journal</i>, Vol. 35,
No. 1, pp. 27 - 32 (January).</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Haberl, J., MacDonald, M., Eden, A. 1988. “An Overview of
3-D Graphical Analysis Using DOE-2 Hourly Simulation Data,” <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 94, Pt. 1, pp. 212 - 227 (January). </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
<span style='color:black'>Kim, K., Haberl, J. 2010. “Development of a
Calibration Methodology for Code-Complaint Simulation With Results From Using a
Case-Study House in a Hot and Humid Climate”, <i>Proceedings of the
17th Symposium on Improving Building Systems in Hot and Humid Climates,</i>
Texas A&M University, Austin, Texas, accepted for publication (May).</span><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., Haberl, J., O'Neal, D. 1992. “A
Procedure for Calibrating the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-Weather Dependent
Loads,” <i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 98, Pt. 1, pp. 636 -
652 (January).</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> <br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=)
8=( 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=| 8=) :=') 8=)8=?<br>
<br>
Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., <a
href="mailto:FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu">FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu</a><br>
<br>
Professor............................................................Office Ph:
979-845-6507<br>
<br>
Department of Architecture.............................Lab Ph:979-845-6065<br>
<br>
Energy Systems Laboratory.............................FAX: 979-862-2457<br>
<br>
Texas A&M University.....................................77843-3581<br>
<br>
College Station, Texas, USA, 77843..................URL:<a
href="http://www.esl.tamu.edu/" target="_blank">www.esl.tamu.edu</a><br>
<br>
8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=()
8=) :=) 8=) 8=! 8=) 8=? 8=)8=0</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <a
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
on behalf of Carol Gardner [<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com">cmg750@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> R B<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Hi Rohini, </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>When you are bill matching there are not magical ways of doing
things. You pretty much have to put what's in the building in your model. Those
things you can control. The tricky part is to figure out how the building is
really being operated and to get the most accurate weather data you can for
your site.</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Cheers,</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Carol</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:34 AM, R B <<a
href="mailto:slv3sat@gmail.com">slv3sat@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:black'><br clear=all>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Hi All, </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>While modelling existing building (with calibration to utility
bill), do you model every VAV zone or lump similar ones together? What could be
possible disadvantages of lumping down the road? Any ECM's that will be
affected by this simplification?</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Is there a magical way to figure the W/sqft for lighting and plug
loads without having to count everything on site? </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Thanks for any insights.</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>-Rohini</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif";color:black'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif";
color:black'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Bldg-sim mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org"
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Chris
Yates <span style='color:#4F6228'>C Eng MCIBSE</span><br>
<i>Building Physics Consultant</i><br>
Tel: +447960731576<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a><br>
Skype: christopher.m.yates<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"??","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Bldg-sim mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a
href="mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"??","serif"'>Chris
Yates <span style='color:#4F6228'>C Eng MCIBSE</span><br>
<i>Building Physics Consultant</i><br>
Tel: +447960731576<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a><br>
Skype: <span class=ecxspelle>christopher.m.yates</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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