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Thanks a lot guys and once again sorry to Jeff for taking it OT. <br>
<br>
It seems that air walls mean different things in different
simulation environments. It's been really helpful understanding what
modellers from the DOE2 pedigree use. My principle experience with
these "Air walls" has been within the micro-tradition of IES.
Amongst IES users the trend seems to be to model air walls as holes,
transparent to solar beam, acting as a "diffusing layer" to longwave
radiation (but with Emissivity = 1). IES can also model bulk air
flow between one zone and the next using macroflo. <br>
<br>
This method has its uses, but can also be abused somewhat by users
trying to do "CFD"! <br>
<br>
You've been very helpful, thanks<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
On 09/02/2011 15:12, Nick Caton wrote:
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Suwon is quite right – the limitations of system
quantities per zone is a major reason we need air partitions
to model actual
designs. There are a variety of other situations in which a
massless partition
becomes useful…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">In programs like eQuest/DOE2 which are not
modeling hourly CFD
for air movement, air surfaces may also be used to
approximate/enforce thermal
layering in large volumes such as a gym or an atrium,
separating the “conditioned”
volume at the occupied levels from the other layers. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">The ability to model air walls in place of a
construction with mass
also permits the option to explore limited layout changes
such as knocking down
a wall to “thermally connect” two spaces.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">In summary, “artificial boundaries” can be a
pretty
useful tool when one intends to model a variety of things
with a higher degree
of accuracy. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">It appears to me Jeff is making a broader point
in the context
of the papers/experiences he is posting, using air walls /
approximate zoning
as a specific case-in-point: Approximating rough
partitions/zoning in an
existing building with air walls, even when the exact layout
/ thermal massing
of the actual partitions is known, can be sufficient, <u>even
necessary</u>,
when the intent is to “fit” a model to “real” data. He’s
not suggesting thermal construction lag isn’t real or
important to model
in all cases, but rather that the assumption such behavior
is unaffected by un-modeled/un-measured
factors can itself be misleading.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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font-family: "Stylus
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Stylus
BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77,
94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span
style="font-family: "Stylus
BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77,
94);"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt;
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color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
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color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
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color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
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color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
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color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
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blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt;
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";"> songsuwon
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ssw1007@hotmail.com">mailto:ssw1007@hotmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 09, 2011 4:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a>; Nick Caton<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit
ECM's<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">Hi
Chris,<br>
<br>
In most building energy simulation programs including DOE-2,
It is impossible
to define two different HVAC systems in one thermal
zone. Therefore, it is sometimes useful to seperate one
actural zone
into two thermal zones(e.g. interior zone and perimeter
zone) using an
articificial boundary like 'air wall' when an actual one
zone in
existinfg building has two different systems, for
example, VAV
system is for a interior zone, and fan coil unit is for a
perimeter
zone. <br>
<br>
Suwon Song <br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"
align="center"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">
<hr id="stopSpelling" size="2" align="center" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">Date:
Wed, 9 Feb 2011 08:23:51 +0000<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a><br>
CC: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's<br>
<br>
Sorry Nick, my bad regarding the tangent. What you've
described in eQuest seems
synonymous with the NoMass material in Energyplus.<br>
<br>
Perhaps I can bring it a little bit back on topic. Jeff
mentions the use of Air
walls to model existing buildings. However, if you know
where all the
partitions are in an <i>existing</i> building don't they
introduce artificial
boundaries?<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
On 08/02/2011 19:10, Nick Caton wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This thread appears to have
tangented into 3+ different
directions… if you have a new inquiry please start a new
email
chain =)!</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Fransisco – you should refine
your questions by specifying
which program you intend to use, or if your inquiry is of
the “is there a
program that can do this?” variety. Air walls <u>in
eQuest</u>/<u>DOE2</u>
behave as Suwon is describing. They are a type of
interior partition and
will not model heat transfer to the exterior, regardless
of their geometrical
location.</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Chris – I use eQuest/DOE2
primarily. Please refer to
recent discussion on [eQuest-users] where I attempted to
sum up air wall
behavior in both layman’s and complex terms (discussion
attached). </span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">To my understanding DOE2/eQuest
models do not model heat
transfer explicitly by either convection or radiation –
all heat movement
within the model is calculated as a series of direct
(conductive) transfers
between zone surfaces (interior and exterior) on an hourly
basis. Air
walls are unique type of surface in that they have zero
mass but a relatively
low conductivity (by default, approximately the same as a
single layer of
3/8” Gypsum), however this value can be modified as may be
desired.
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">To Rohini – My existing model
calibration experience is
probably limited relative to others contributing – but I
can share the
general observation/advice that your models can only ever
be as accurate as
your gathered data, or lack thereof. An important
corollary I want to
emphasize is that models ultimately serve a purpose, and
that it’s
important at the beginning of any project to identify that
endgame.
Sometimes it’s getting LEED points, sometimes it’s
advising
new or retrofit design for existing envelopes, HVAC,
and/or lighting, sometimes
it’s because there’s academics who simply want a model
they can
pick up after you to tweak to perfection as time goes on…
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Defining where the model is
headed in terms of intent will
permit you to define a degree/deadband of acceptable
accuracy. Without
doing so, you may lose sanity/sleep to the beast before
realizing you
don’t have a finish line defined.</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img id="ecxPicture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.03050202.06080207@gmail.com"
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font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.smithboucher.com/" target="_blank"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family: "??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Francisco Massucci<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit
ECM's</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">
Is it possible to simulate an open door or a open
window in a face with
outdoors boundary conditions? (only calculating heat
loss or gains to the
enviroment). Example: If I apply a "infrared
transparent' in a exterior
window, does it works as a open window, for energy
balance calculation?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">Sorry
about my english.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">Francisco Massucci<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">On
Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:14 PM, songsuwon <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ssw1007@hotmail.com">ssw1007@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">Hi
all,<br>
<br>
<br>
In DOE-2 program, "air wall" is a type of interior
walls without thermal mass effect, only for thermal
resistance(0.9
hr-ft2-F/btu) between zones. I think other similar
simulation
programs have also the same function. <br>
<br>
Suwon Song <br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"
align="center"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">
<hr size="2" align="center" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">Date:
Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:40:22 -0200<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:massucci@gmail.com">massucci@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit
ECM's<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">Hi
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">
I would like to add a question to the list:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">
- Air wall works the same when apllied in a
between zones face or in
an outdoor face?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">Francisco
Massucci<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">On
Tue,
Feb 8, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Chris Yates <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "??","serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Jeff,</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "??","serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
You mention the use of "Real walls or <b><u>air
walls</u></b>"
between zones in your post. I feel this raises
a question on this list that
I've already enquired on this list. I
apologise for raising the issue once
more, however I did not feel that the
discussion resulted in a clear conclusion
of how various simulation programs may treat
"Air walls" or
"virtual partitions".</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "??","serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
I hope you don't mind me asking: </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">what programs do you use
mainly?</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">under normal modelling
practice, how would these programs treat
"air walls" with respect to</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">:<o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Conduction</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Long-wave radiation</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Short-wave radiation</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Air flow</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ul>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";">Many
thanks<br>
<br>
Chris</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "??","serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">On
05/02/2011 22:04, Jeff Haberl wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">ALSO: </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Here are a few papers
that shed light on the ELF/OLF proxy
method
and other findings, somewhat dated but
useful:</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;
font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
black;"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
black;">Haberl, J., Komor,
P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building
Energy Audits: How Daily and
Hourly Consumption Data Can Help,” <i>ASHRAE
Journal, </i>Vol. 32, No. 9,
pp. 26 - 36 (September). </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;
font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
black;"> </span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
black;">Haberl, J., Komor,
P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building
Energy Audits: How Annual and
Monthly Consumption Data Can Help,” <i>ASHRAE
Journal,</i> Vol. 32, No.
8, pp. 26 - 33 (August).</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Haberl, J., Komor, P.
1989. “Status Report on Methods for
Using Hourly, Daily and Monthly Data to
Provide Useful Information on Building
Energy Use,” submitted to the New Jersey
Energy Conservation Lab, Center
for Energy and Environmental Studies at
Princeton University, Princeton, New
Jersey (May).</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Haberl, J., Komor, P.
1989. “Investigating An Analytical
Basis for Improving Commercial Building
Energy Audits: Early Results from a New
Jersey Mall,” <i>Thermal Performance of
the Exterior Envelopes of
Buildings IV,</i> ASHRAE, Atlanta,
Georgia, pp. 302 - 331 (December). </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
black;" lang="PT-BR">Haberl, J., Komor,
P., Haberl, J. 1989. </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif"; color:
black;">“Investigating
An Analytical Basis for Improving
Commercial Building Energy Audits:
Results
from a New Jersey Mall,” Center for
Energy and Environmental Studies
Report No. 264 (June).</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
<span style="color: black;"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:
center;" align="center"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">
<hr size="2" align="center"
width="100%">
</span></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
on behalf of Jeff Haberl [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jhaberl@tamu.edu">jhaberl@tamu.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 05,
2011 3:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; R B<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim]
Modelling for retrofit ECM's</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Rohini,</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Zoning a building
is still an art form. There are
very few papers
that have looked into this with
any rigor. </span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">In one thesis we
did on the Zachry building, which
was the basis
for the Predictor Shootout I and
II, we looked at 1, 2, 5 and
actual zoning on
the building. What we saw was
that, in general, the centroid of
the
"cloud" of data points remained
about the same. However, the
scatter
in the cloud became more
pronounced at we added more zones.</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">So, if all the
zones in the floor are being
operated the same, I'd
use 1, 2 or 5 zones per floor,
depending on the functions of
what's going on in
each zone. Real walls or air walls
between the zones usually get the
job done.</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">The quickest way to
get the light and receptacle loads
on a real
building is using "blink" tests,
which can be done on a Saturday,
with walkie talkies, and a data
logger on the whole-building
electric feed,
possibly some sub feeds. I first
heard of this test from Todd
Taylor at PNNL.
We've used it to help resolved
motor loads, lighting loads,
receptacles, etc.
Seems to work pretty well. </span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">There are also
several ways to get the plug
loads, including: by
proxy, by weather-day-type
profiles, by daily readings, and a
method that uses
an energy balance. The proxy
methods can use square proxies for
for the
occupancy based on OLF/ELF ratios,
the weather-day-type method was
something
that I heard about from Don Hadley
at PNNL, later adopted by Bou
Saada on the Forrestal
building and daycare center. The
daily readings are just that, read
the main
meter by eye, daily, especially
during weather independent times.
The energy
balance method is documented in
papers by Claridge et al. at the
ESL.</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">There is also some
encouraging work being done by
Abushakra and
Reddy on ASHRAE RP 1404, now in
progress and scheduled for
completion later
this year. This is based on
previous work by Abushakra for his
Ph.D. thesis.</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Hope this helps.</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Jeff</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> <br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">PS: here are some
helpful papers:</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Song, S., Haberl,
J. 2008. “A Procedure for the
Performance
Evaluation of a New Commercial
Building: Part I – Calibrated
As-built
Simulation”, <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research, </i>Vol.
114, Pt. 2,
pp. 375-388 (June ). </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Song, S., Haberl,
J. 2008. “A Procedure for the
Performance
Evaluation of a New Commercial
Building: Part II – Overall
Methodology
and Comparison of Results”, <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research, </i>Vol.
114,
Pt. 2, pp. 389 – 403 (June).</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Claridge, D.,
Abushakra, B., Haberl, J. 2003.
“Electricity
Diversity Profiles for Energy
Simulation of Office Buildings
(1093-RP),” <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research,</i>
Vol. 110, Pt. 1 (February), pp.
365-377.</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;" lang="FR">Haberl,
J., Bou-Saada, T. 1998. </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;">“Procedures for
Calibrating
Hourly Simulation Models to
Measured Building Energy and
Environmental
Data,” <i>ASME Journal of Solar
Energy Engineering</i>, Vol.
120, pp. 193
- 204 (August). </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;" lang="FR">Haberl,
J., Bronson, D., O'Neal, D.
1995. </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;">“An Evaluation
of the Impact of Using Measured
Weather Data Versus TMY Weather
Data in a DOE-2
Simulation of an Existing
Building in Central Texas,” <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research,
</i>Vol. 101, Pt.. 2, pp. 558 -
576 (June). </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Haberl, J.,
Bronson, D., Hinchey, S.,
O'Neal, D. 1993.
“Graphical Tools to help
Calibrate the DOE-2 Simulation
Program to
Non-weather Dependent Measured
Loads,” <i>ASHRAE Journal</i>,
Vol. 35,
No. 1, pp. 27 - 32 (January).</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Haberl, J.,
MacDonald, M., Eden, A. 1988.
“An Overview of
3-D Graphical Analysis Using
DOE-2 Hourly Simulation Data,” <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research,
</i>Vol. 94, Pt. 1, pp. 212 -
227 (January). </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
<span style="color: black;">Kim,
K., Haberl, J. 2010.
“Development of a
Calibration Methodology for
Code-Complaint Simulation With
Results From Using a
Case-Study House in a Hot and
Humid Climate”, <i>Proceedings
of the
17th Symposium on Improving
Building Systems in Hot and
Humid Climates,</i>
Texas A&M University,
Austin, Texas, accepted for
publication (May).</span><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Bronson, D.,
Hinchey, S., Haberl, J., O'Neal,
D. 1992. “A
Procedure for Calibrating the
DOE-2 Simulation Program to
Non-Weather Dependent
Loads,” <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research, </i>Vol.
98, Pt. 1, pp. 636 -
652 (January).</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color: black;"> <br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: blue;">8=! 8=) :=)
8=) ;=) 8=)
8=( 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=| 8=)
:=') 8=)8=?<br>
<br>
Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu">FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu</a><br>
<br>
Professor............................................................Office
Ph:
979-845-6507<br>
<br>
Department of
Architecture.............................Lab
Ph:979-845-6065<br>
<br>
Energy Systems
Laboratory.............................FAX:
979-862-2457<br>
<br>
Texas A&M
University.....................................77843-3581<br>
<br>
College Station, Texas, USA,
77843..................URL:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.esl.tamu.edu/"
target="_blank">www.esl.tamu.edu</a><br>
<br>
8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=)
8=()
8=) :=) 8=) 8=! 8=) 8=?
8=)8=0</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align: center;"
align="center"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">
<hr size="2" align="center"
width="100%">
</span></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
on behalf of Carol Gardner [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com">cmg750@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
February 05, 2011 12:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> R B<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim]
Modelling for retrofit ECM's</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Hi Rohini, </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">When you are
bill matching there are not
magical ways of doing
things. You pretty much have
to put what's in the
building in your model.
Those
things you can control. The
tricky part is to figure out
how the building is
really being operated and to
get the most accurate
weather data you can for
your site.</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Cheers,</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Carol</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">On Fri, Feb
4, 2011 at 8:34 AM, R B
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:slv3sat@gmail.com">slv3sat@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;"><br
clear="all">
</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Hi All, </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">While
modelling existing
building (with
calibration to utility
bill), do you model
every VAV zone or lump
similar ones together?
What could be
possible disadvantages
of lumping down the
road? Any ECM's that
will be
affected by this
simplification?</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Is there
a magical way to figure
the W/sqft for lighting
and plug
loads without having to
count everything on
site? </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">Thanks
for any insights.</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">-Rohini</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";
color: black;"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";
color: black;">-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">Chris
Yates <span style="color: rgb(79, 98,
40);">C Eng MCIBSE</span><br>
<i>Building Physics Consultant</i><br>
Tel: +447960731576<br>
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a><br>
Skype: christopher.m.yates<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
"??","serif";">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: "??","serif";">Chris
Yates <span style="color: rgb(79, 98, 40);">C Eng
MCIBSE</span><br>
<i>Building Physics Consultant</i><br>
Tel: +447960731576<br>
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a><br>
Skype: <span class="ecxspelle">christopher.m.yates</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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"??","serif";"><br>
_______________________________________________ Bldg-sim
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<div>
<p>Chris Yates <span style="color: rgb(79, 98, 40);">C Eng
MCIBSE</span></p>
<p><i style="">Building Physics Consultant<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p>Tel:<span style=""> </span>+447960731576</p>
<p>Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a></p>
<p>Skype: <span class="SpellE">christopher.m.yates</span></p>
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