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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US">Dear Jeff,<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US"><br>
You mention the use of "Real walls or <u><b>air walls</b></u>"
between zones in your post. I feel this raises a question on
this list that I've already enquired on this list. I apologise
for raising the issue once more, however I did not feel that the
discussion resulted in a clear conclusion of how various
simulation programs may treat "Air walls" or "virtual
partitions".<br>
</span></p>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US"><br>
I hope you don't mind me asking: <br>
</span>
<ul>
<li><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US">what programs do you use mainly?</span></li>
<li><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US">under normal modelling practice, how would
these programs treat "air walls" with respect to</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US"><span style=""><span style="font: 7pt
"Times New Roman";"></span></span></span>:</li>
<ul>
<li><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><span style=""><span style="font:
7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Conduction</span></li>
<li><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Long-wave radiation</span></li>
<li><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><span style=""><span style="font:
7pt "Times New Roman";"></span></span></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Short-wave radiation</span></li>
<li><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><span style=""></span></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Air flow</span></li>
</ul>
</ul>
Many thanks<br>
<br>
Chris<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US"> <br>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
On 05/02/2011 22:04, Jeff Haberl wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:9F589FD23AD8AB41A8ED33EE68F2CFC724758D@TEESMAIL.tees.tamus.edu"
type="cite">
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<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal" align="left">
<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;"><span style=""><span style="font: 7pt
'Times New Roman';"><font size="3" face="Arial">ALSO:
</font></span></span></span></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal" align="left">
<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;"><span style=""><span style="font: 7pt
'Times New Roman';"></span></span></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal" align="left">
<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;"><span style=""><span style="font: 7pt
'Times New Roman';"></span></span></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal" align="left">
<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;"><span style=""><span style="font: 7pt
'Times New Roman';"><font size="3" face="Arial">Here are
a few papers that shed light on the ELF/OLF proxy
method and other findings, somewhat dated but useful:</font></span></span></span></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal" align="left">
<font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-family: 'Times
New Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><span style=""><span
style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';"></span></span></span></font> </p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal" align="left">
<font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><span
style=""><span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;">Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. “Improving
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Commercial</st1:placename>
<st1:placetype w:st="on">
Building</st1:placetype></st1:place> Energy Audits:
How Daily and Hourly Consumption Data Can Help,”
<i style="">ASHRAE Journal, </i>Vol. 32, No. 9, pp. 26
- 36 (September). <o:p></o:p></span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal" align="left">
<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;"><span style=""></span></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal" align="left">
<font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><span
style=""><span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;">Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. “Improving
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Commercial</st1:placename>
<st1:placetype w:st="on">Building</st1:placetype></st1:place>
Energy Audits: How Annual and Monthly Consumption Data
Can Help,”
<i style="">ASHRAE Journal,</i> Vol. 32, No. 8, pp. 26 -
33 (August).<o:p></o:p></span></font></font></p>
<p align="left"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';
color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<p align="left"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';
color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><font face="Arial"><font
size="3">Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. “Status Report on
Methods for Using Hourly, Daily and Monthly Data to
Provide Useful Information on Building Energy Use,”
submitted to the New Jersey Energy Conservation Lab,
Center for Energy and Environmental Studies at Princeton
University, Princeton, New Jersey (May).<o:p></o:p></font></font></span></p>
<p align="left"> </p>
<p align="left"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';
color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><font size="3" face="Arial">Haberl,
J., Komor, P. 1989. “Investigating An Analytical Basis for
Improving
<st1:placename w:st="on">Commercial</st1:placename> <st1:placetype
w:st="on">Building</st1:placetype> Energy Audits: Early
Results from a New Jersey Mall,”
<i style="">Thermal Performance of the Exterior Envelopes
of Buildings IV,</i> ASHRAE,
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Atlanta</st1:city>,
<st1:country-region w:st="on">
Georgia</st1:country-region></st1:place>, pp. 302 -
331 (December). </font></span></p>
<p align="left"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';
color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;"><o:p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;" lang="PT-BR">Haberl, J., Komor, P.,
Haberl, J. 1989.
</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';
color: black; font-size: 9pt;">“Investigating An
Analytical Basis for Improving
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Commercial</st1:placename>
<st1:placetype w:st="on">
Building</st1:placetype></st1:place> Energy
Audits: Results from a New Jersey Mall,” Center for
Energy and Environmental Studies Report No. 264
(June).</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: black;
font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
</o:p></span>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 16px;"><font face="Arial">
<hr tabindex="-1">
</font>
<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF25756"><font
face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] on behalf of
Jeff Haberl [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jhaberl@tamu.edu">jhaberl@tamu.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 05, 2011 3:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; R B<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit
ECM's<br>
</font><br>
</font></div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Tahoma; direction: ltr; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 10pt;">
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">Rohini,</font></p>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">Zoning a building is still
an art form. There are very few papers that have
looked into this with any rigor.
</font></p>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">In one thesis we did on the
Zachry building, which was the basis for the Predictor
Shootout I and II, we looked at 1, 2, 5 and actual
zoning on the building. What we saw was that, in
general, the centroid of the "cloud" of data points
remained about the same. However, the scatter in the
cloud became more pronounced at we added more zones.</font></p>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">So, if all the zones in the
floor are being operated the same, I'd use 1, 2 or 5
zones per floor, depending on the functions of what's
going on in each zone. Real walls or air walls between
the zones usually get the job done.</font></p>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">The quickest way to get the
light and receptacle loads on a real building is using
"blink" tests, which can be done on a Saturday, with
walkie talkies, and a data logger on the
whole-building electric feed, possibly some sub feeds.
I first heard of this test from Todd Taylor at PNNL.
We've used it to help resolved motor loads, lighting
loads, receptacles, etc. Seems to work pretty well.
</font></p>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">There are also several ways
to get the plug loads, including: by proxy, by
weather-day-type profiles, by daily readings, and a
method that uses an energy balance. The proxy methods
can use square proxies for for the occupancy based on
OLF/ELF ratios, the weather-day-type method was
something that I heard about from Don Hadley at PNNL,
later adopted by Bou Saada on the Forrestal building
and daycare center. The daily readings are just that,
read the main meter by eye, daily, especially during
weather independent times. The energy balance method
is documented in papers by Claridge et al. at the ESL.</font></p>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">There is also some
encouraging work being done by Abushakra and Reddy on
ASHRAE RP 1404, now in progress and scheduled for
completion later this year. This is based on previous
work by Abushakra for his Ph.D. thesis.</font></p>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">Hope this helps.</font></p>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">Jeff</font></p>
<div>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Arial">PS: here are some helpful
papers:</font></p>
<p> </p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><font
face="Arial"><font size="3">Song, S., Haberl, J.
2008. “A Procedure for the Performance
Evaluation of a New Commercial Building: Part I
– Calibrated As-built Simulation”,<span> </span>
<i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 114,
Pt. 2, pp. 375-388 (June ).<span> </span>
</font></font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><font
face="Arial"><font size="3">Song, S., Haberl, J.
2008. “A Procedure for the Performance
Evaluation of a New Commercial Building: Part II
– Overall Methodology and Comparison of
Results”,<span>
</span><i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol.
114, Pt. 2, pp. 389 – 403 (June).<span></span></font></font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><font
size="3" face="Arial">Claridge, D., Abushakra, B.,
Haberl, J. 2003. “Electricity Diversity Profiles
for Energy Simulation of Office Buildings
(1093-RP),” <i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research,</i>
Vol. 110, Pt. 1 (February), pp. 365-377.</font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color:
black; font-size: 9pt;" lang="FR">Haberl, J.,
Bou-Saada, T. 1998.
</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;">“Procedures
for Calibrating Hourly Simulation Models to
Measured Building Energy and Environmental
Data,”
<i>ASME Journal of Solar Energy Engineering</i>,
Vol. 120, pp. 193 - 204 (August).
</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color:
black; font-size: 9pt;" lang="FR">Haberl, J.,
Bronson, D., O'Neal, D. 1995.
</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;">“An
Evaluation of the Impact of Using Measured
Weather Data Versus TMY Weather Data in a DOE-2
Simulation of an Existing Building in Central
Texas,”
<i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 101,
Pt.. 2, pp. 558 - 576 (June). </span>
</font></font></p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><font
size="3" face="Arial">Haberl, J., Bronson, D.,
Hinchey, S., O'Neal, D. 1993. “Graphical Tools to
help Calibrate the DOE-2 Simulation Program to
Non-weather Dependent Measured Loads,”
<i>ASHRAE Journal</i>, Vol. 35, No. 1, pp. 27 - 32
(January).</font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><font
size="3" face="Arial">Haberl, J., MacDonald, M.,
Eden, A. 1988. “An Overview of 3-D Graphical
Analysis Using DOE-2 Hourly Simulation Data,” <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 94, Pt. 1, pp.
212 - 227 (January).
</font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color:
black; font-size: 9pt;">Kim, K., Haberl, J.
2010. “Development of a Calibration Methodology
for Code-Complaint Simulation With Results From
Using a Case-Study House in a Hot and Humid
Climate”,<span>
</span></span><i><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman'; color: black; font-size:
9pt;">Proceedings of the 17th<span>
</span>Symposium on Improving Building Systems
in Hot and Humid Climates,</span></i><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color:
black; font-size: 9pt;"> Texas A&M
University, Austin, Texas, accepted for
publication (May).<span></span></span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"></span> </p>
<p style="text-indent: 0in; margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in;"
class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"><font
size="3" face="Arial">Bronson, D., Hinchey, S.,
Haberl, J., O'Neal, D. 1992. “A Procedure for
Calibrating the DOE-2 Simulation Program to
Non-Weather Dependent Loads,” <i>ASHRAE
Transactions-Research,
</i>Vol. 98, Pt. 1, pp. 636 - 652 (January).</font></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div><font size="3" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">8=!
8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=|
8=) :=') 8=)8=?<br>
<br>
Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E.,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu">FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu</a><br>
<br>
Professor............................................................Office
Ph: 979-845-6507<br>
<br>
Department of
Architecture.............................Lab
Ph:979-845-6065<br>
<br>
Energy Systems
Laboratory.............................FAX:
979-862-2457<br>
<br>
Texas A&M
University.....................................77843-3581<br>
<br>
College Station, Texas, USA,
77843..................URL:www.esl.tamu.edu<br>
<br>
8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) :=) 8=)
8=! 8=) 8=? 8=)8=0<br>
</font></div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-size: 16px;"><font face="Arial">
<hr tabindex="-1">
</font>
<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF359583"><font
face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] on behalf
of Carol Gardner [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com">cmg750@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> R B<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for
retrofit ECM's<br>
</font><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Hi Rohini, </font>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial">When you are bill matching
there are not magical ways of doing things. You
pretty much have to put what's in the building in
your model. Those things you can control. The
tricky part is to figure out how the building is
really being operated and to get the most accurate
weather data you can for your site.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Cheers,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Carol<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font face="Arial">On Fri,
Feb 4, 2011 at 8:34 AM, R B <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:slv3sat@gmail.com"
target="_blank">slv3sat@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</font>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,
204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<div><br clear="all">
<font face="Arial">Hi All, </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">While modelling existing
building (with calibration to utility bill),
do you model every VAV zone or lump similar
ones together? What could be possible
disadvantages of lumping down the road? Any
ECM's that will be affected by this
simplification?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Is there a magical way
to figure the W/sqft for lighting and plug
loads without having to count everything on
site?
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Thanks for any insights.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">-Rohini</font></div>
<br>
<font face="Arial">_______________________________________________<br>
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<font face="Arial">-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE<br>
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<div>
<p>Chris Yates <span style="color: rgb(79, 98, 40);">C Eng
MCIBSE</span></p>
<p><i style="">Building Physics Consultant<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p>Tel:<span style=""> </span>+447960731576</p>
<p>Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a></p>
<p>Skype: <span class="SpellE">christopher.m.yates</span></p>
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