<div>Hi,</div>
<div> </div>
<div> Is it possible to simulate an open door or a open window in a face with outdoors boundary conditions? (only calculating heat loss or gains to the enviroment). Example: If I apply a "infrared transparent' in a exterior window, does it works as a open window, for energy balance calculation?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sorry about my english.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Francisco Massucci<br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:14 PM, songsuwon <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ssw1007@hotmail.com">ssw1007@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div>Hi all,<br> <br> <br>In DOE-2 program, "air wall" is a type of interior walls without thermal mass effect, only for thermal resistance(0.9 hr-ft2-F/btu) between zones. I think other similar simulation programs have also the same function. <br>
<br>Suwon Song <br> <br>
<hr>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:40:22 -0200<br>From: <a href="mailto:massucci@gmail.com" target="_blank">massucci@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5"><br>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's<br><br>
<div>Hi all,</div>
<div> </div>
<div> I would like to add a question to the list:</div>
<div> </div>
<div> - Air wall works the same when apllied in a between zones face or in an outdoor face?<br></div>
<div>thanks</div>
<div>Francisco Massucci<br></div>
<div>On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Chris Yates <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com" target="_blank">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<div>
<p><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US">Dear Jeff,<br></span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US"><br>You mention the use of "Real walls or <u><b>air walls</b></u>" between zones in your post. I feel this raises a question on this list that I've already enquired on this list. I apologise for raising the issue once more, however I did not feel that the discussion resulted in a clear conclusion of how various simulation programs may treat "Air walls" or "virtual partitions".<br>
</span></p><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US"><br>I hope you don't mind me asking: <br></span>
<ul>
<li><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US">what programs do you use mainly?</span></li>
<li><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US">under normal modelling practice, how would these programs treat "air walls" with respect to</span><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"></span></span></span>:</li>
<ul>
<li><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US">Conduction</span></li>
<li><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US">Long-wave radiation</span></li>
<li><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"></span></span></span><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US">Short-wave radiation</span></li>
<li><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US"><span></span></span><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US">Air flow</span></li></ul></ul>Many thanks<br><br>Chris<span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US"> <br>
</span>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>On 05/02/2011 22:04, Jeff Haberl wrote:
<blockquote>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; DIRECTION: ltr; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<p align="left"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"><font size="3" face="Arial">ALSO: </font></span></span></span></p>
<p align="left"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"></span></span></span> </p>
<p align="left"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"></span></span></span> </p>
<p align="left"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"><font size="3" face="Arial">Here are a few papers that shed light on the ELF/OLF proxy method and other findings, somewhat dated but useful:</font></span></span></span></p>
<p align="left"><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"></span></span></span></font> </p>
<p align="left"><font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: How Daily and Hourly Consumption Data Can Help,” <i>ASHRAE Journal, </i>Vol. 32, No. 9, pp. 26 - 36 (September). </span></font></font></p>
<p align="left"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span></span></span> </p>
<p align="left"><font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: How Annual and Monthly Consumption Data Can Help,” <i>ASHRAE Journal,</i> Vol. 32, No. 8, pp. 26 - 33 (August).</span></font></font></p>
<p align="left"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p>
<p align="left"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><font face="Arial"><font size="3">Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. “Status Report on Methods for Using Hourly, Daily and Monthly Data to Provide Useful Information on Building Energy Use,” submitted to the New Jersey Energy Conservation Lab, Center for Energy and Environmental Studies at Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey (May).</font></font></span></p>
<p align="left"> </p>
<p align="left"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><font size="3" face="Arial">Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. “Investigating An Analytical Basis for Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Early Results from a New Jersey Mall,” <i>Thermal Performance of the Exterior Envelopes of Buildings IV,</i> ASHRAE, Atlanta, Georgia, pp. 302 - 331 (December). </font></span></p>
<p align="left"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="PT-BR">Haberl, J., Komor, P., Haberl, J. 1989. </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">“Investigating An Analytical Basis for Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Results from a New Jersey Mall,” Center for Energy and Environmental Studies Report No. 264 (June).</span></font></font></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p></span>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><font face="Arial">
<hr>
</font>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] on behalf of Jeff Haberl [<a href="mailto:jhaberl@tamu.edu" target="_blank">jhaberl@tamu.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 05, 2011 3:44 PM<br><b>To:</b> Carol Gardner; R B<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's<br>
</font><br></font></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; DIRECTION: ltr; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font size="3" face="Arial">Rohini,</font><br> <br><font size="3" face="Arial">Zoning a building is still an art form. There are very few papers that have looked into this with any rigor. </font><br>
<br><font size="3" face="Arial">In one thesis we did on the Zachry building, which was the basis for the Predictor Shootout I and II, we looked at 1, 2, 5 and actual zoning on the building. What we saw was that, in general, the centroid of the "cloud" of data points remained about the same. However, the scatter in the cloud became more pronounced at we added more zones.</font><br>
<br><font size="3" face="Arial">So, if all the zones in the floor are being operated the same, I'd use 1, 2 or 5 zones per floor, depending on the functions of what's going on in each zone. Real walls or air walls between the zones usually get the job done.</font><br>
<br><font size="3" face="Arial">The quickest way to get the light and receptacle loads on a real building is using "blink" tests, which can be done on a Saturday, with walkie talkies, and a data logger on the whole-building electric feed, possibly some sub feeds. I first heard of this test from Todd Taylor at PNNL. We've used it to help resolved motor loads, lighting loads, receptacles, etc. Seems to work pretty well. </font><br>
<br><font size="3" face="Arial">There are also several ways to get the plug loads, including: by proxy, by weather-day-type profiles, by daily readings, and a method that uses an energy balance. The proxy methods can use square proxies for for the occupancy based on OLF/ELF ratios, the weather-day-type method was something that I heard about from Don Hadley at PNNL, later adopted by Bou Saada on the Forrestal building and daycare center. The daily readings are just that, read the main meter by eye, daily, especially during weather independent times. The energy balance method is documented in papers by Claridge et al. at the ESL.</font><br>
<br><font size="3" face="Arial">There is also some encouraging work being done by Abushakra and Reddy on ASHRAE RP 1404, now in progress and scheduled for completion later this year. This is based on previous work by Abushakra for his Ph.D. thesis.</font><br>
<br><font size="3" face="Arial">Hope this helps.</font><br> <br><font size="3" face="Arial">Jeff</font><br>
<div> <br><font size="3" face="Arial">PS: here are some helpful papers:</font><br> <br>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><font face="Arial"><font size="3">Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. “A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation of a New Commercial Building: Part I – Calibrated As-built Simulation”,<span> </span><i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 114, Pt. 2, pp. 375-388 (June ).<span> </span></font></font></span></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><font face="Arial"><font size="3">Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. “A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation of a New Commercial Building: Part II – Overall Methodology and Comparison of Results”,<span> </span><i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 114, Pt. 2, pp. 389 – 403 (June).<span></span></font></font></span></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><font size="3" face="Arial">Claridge, D., Abushakra, B., Haberl, J. 2003. “Electricity Diversity Profiles for Energy Simulation of Office Buildings (1093-RP),” <i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research,</i> Vol. 110, Pt. 1 (February), pp. 365-377.</font></span></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="FR">Haberl, J., Bou-Saada, T. 1998. </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">“Procedures for Calibrating Hourly Simulation Models to Measured Building Energy and Environmental Data,” <i>ASME Journal of Solar Energy Engineering</i>, Vol. 120, pp. 193 - 204 (August). </span></font></font></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="FR">Haberl, J., Bronson, D., O'Neal, D. 1995. </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">“An Evaluation of the Impact of Using Measured Weather Data Versus TMY Weather Data in a DOE-2 Simulation of an Existing Building in Central Texas,” <i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 101, Pt.. 2, pp. 558 - 576 (June). </span></font></font></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><font size="3" face="Arial">Haberl, J., Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., O'Neal, D. 1993. “Graphical Tools to help Calibrate the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-weather Dependent Measured Loads,” <i>ASHRAE Journal</i>, Vol. 35, No. 1, pp. 27 - 32 (January).</font></span></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><font size="3" face="Arial">Haberl, J., MacDonald, M., Eden, A. 1988. “An Overview of 3-D Graphical Analysis Using DOE-2 Hourly Simulation Data,” <i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 94, Pt. 1, pp. 212 - 227 (January). </font></span></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><font face="Arial"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Kim, K., Haberl, J. 2010. “Development of a Calibration Methodology for Code-Complaint Simulation With Results From Using a Case-Study House in a Hot and Humid Climate”,<span> </span></span><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Proceedings of the 17th<span> </span>Symposium on Improving Building Systems in Hot and Humid Climates,</span></i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> Texas A&M University, Austin, Texas, accepted for publication (May).<span></span></span></font></font></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: 0in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><font size="3" face="Arial">Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., Haberl, J., O'Neal, D. 1992. “A Procedure for Calibrating the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-Weather Dependent Loads,” <i>ASHRAE Transactions-Research, </i>Vol. 98, Pt. 1, pp. 636 - 652 (January).</font></span></p>
<br> <br>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="3" face="Arial">8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=| 8=) :=') 8=)8=?<br><br>Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., <a href="mailto:FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu" target="_blank">FASHRAE..............jhaberl@tamu.edu</a><br>
<br>Professor............................................................Office Ph: 979-845-6507<br><br>Department of Architecture.............................Lab Ph:979-845-6065<br><br>Energy Systems Laboratory.............................FAX: 979-862-2457<br>
<br>Texas A&M University.....................................77843-3581<br><br>College Station, Texas, USA, 77843..................URL:<a href="http://www.esl.tamu.edu/" target="_blank">www.esl.tamu.edu</a><br><br>8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) :=) 8=) 8=! 8=) 8=? 8=)8=0<br>
</font></div></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><font face="Arial">
<hr>
</font>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] on behalf of Carol Gardner [<a href="mailto:cmg750@gmail.com" target="_blank">cmg750@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:59 PM<br><b>To:</b> R B<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's<br>
</font><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Hi Rohini, </font>
<div><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial">When you are bill matching there are not magical ways of doing things. You pretty much have to put what's in the building in your model. Those things you can control. The tricky part is to figure out how the building is really being operated and to get the most accurate weather data you can for your site.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Cheers,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Carol<br><br></font>
<div><font face="Arial">On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:34 AM, R B <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:slv3sat@gmail.com" target="_blank">slv3sat@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></font>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<div><br clear="all"><font face="Arial">Hi All, </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">While modelling existing building (with calibration to utility bill), do you model every VAV zone or lump similar ones together? What could be possible disadvantages of lumping down the road? Any ECM's that will be affected by this simplification?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Is there a magical way to figure the W/sqft for lighting and plug loads without having to count everything on site? </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Thanks for any insights.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">-Rohini</font></div><br><font face="Arial">_______________________________________________<br>Bldg-sim mailing list<br></font><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org" target="_blank"><font face="Arial">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org</font></a><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br><font face="Arial">-- <br>Carol Gardner PE<br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><pre><fieldset></fieldset>
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<div>-- <br>
<div>Chris Yates <span style="COLOR: rgb(79,98,40)">C Eng MCIBSE</span><br><i>Building Physics Consultant</i><br>Tel:<span> </span>+447960731576<br>Email: <a href="mailto:chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com" target="_blank">chris.malcolm.yates@gmail.com</a><br>
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