[From nobody Wed Mar 16 13:16:26 2011 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----_=_NextPart_004_01CBBEFA.96B90380"; type="multipart/alternative" Subject: RE: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:49:30 -0600 Message-ID: <83996EE70003D04B830E1C4A5E6688CE01834133@PATHMAIL2.pathfinderengineers.com> In-Reply-To: <FCEBC0C28321F7479789B25A13030F6902C3BA4B@sandbinc2.sbi.smithboucher.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? Thread-Index: Acu9trxx8YvYKU4ATGeZtIIQ0wFuigAA9qOgAC7GFWAADP8qUAATkCiQAACcpCA= References: <FCEBC0C28321F7479789B25A13030F6902C3B8CE@sandbinc2.sbi.smithboucher.com><47ddd7d5789387c219f828467a74238b@mail.gmail.com><AABE40BD5B355C48B5D60B7E996E4168FD7C5437EB@TLCEC1.tlc-eng.com><FCEBC0C28321F7479789B25A13030F6902C3B94D@sandbinc2.sbi.smithboucher.com><B7EA3241-CBB0-492D-8AE2-C68FD21B1656@gmail.com><FCEBC0C28321F7479789B25A13030F6902C3B956@sandbinc2.sbi.smithboucher.com><70668EC1241E5A40ABA1FB2C0694DA490A7C8D7289@MEEMAIL01><AABE40BD5B355C48B5D60B7E996E4168FD7C5438A8@TLCEC1.tlc-eng.com> <FCEBC0C28321F7479789B25A13030F6902C3BA4B@sandbinc2.sbi.smithboucher.com> From: "Bishop, Bill" <wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com> To: "Nick Caton" <ncaton@smithboucher.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_004_01CBBEFA.96B90380 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_005_01CBBEFA.96B90380" ------_=_NextPart_005_01CBBEFA.96B90380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good explanation Nick. I wish we had a way to make "stickies" on this = forum. It would save a lot of time. =20 _____ =20 From: equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org = [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick = Caton Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 9:44 AM To: Fleming, Joe; James Newman; Arpan Bakshi Cc: equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org Subject: Re: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? =20 Joe/James: =20 Deleted/No partition - No heat transfer, no mass [Total disconnect] Adiabatic - No heat transfer, Yes mass =20 Standard - Yes heat transfer, Yes mass (frame/mass partitions) Air - Yes heat transfer, No mass Internal - No heat transfer, Yes mass (another means of specifying = thermal mass in a space - I haven't used this myself) =20 An adiabatic surface will retain/store heat hour-to-hour because it has = mass, but will not transfer heat to or from another space. If you take = square room and delete one of the walls, it is thermally a space with 3 = walls only, regardless of the geometry. =20 Air walls connecting separate zones are the closest thing to reality = within these options for multiple zones in a single, unpartitioned = space. They impose a finite limit on the amount of heat transfer that = may occur each hour between spaces. I'm unsure of whether jacking up = their conductivity (i.e. U=3D9999) would be closer to reality or would = potentially cause instabilities in the simulation, per discussion below, = but the default U-2.7 is recommended in the DOE2 help files.=20 =20 ~Nick =20 cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB =20 NICK CATON, E.I.T. PROJECT ENGINEER Smith & Boucher Engineers 25501 west valley parkway olathe ks 66061 direct 913 344.0036 fax 913 345.0617 www.smithboucher.com=20 =20 From: Fleming, Joe [mailto:joe.fleming@tlc-eng.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 11:13 PM To: James Newman; Nick Caton; Arpan Bakshi Cc: equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org Subject: RE: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? =20 A deleted wall/partition may just be an adiabatic partition. An air = wall might be the better choice here. Not 100% sure. =20 Joe Fleming E.I., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP Mechanical Engineer II =20 TLC Engineering for Architecture Your 2030 Challenge Partner =20 800 Fairway Drive, Suite 250 Deerfield Beach, FL 33441-1816 =20 phone:=20 954-418-9096 fax:=20 954-418-9296 direct:=20 954-418-4591 website:=20 www.tlc-engineers.com <http://www.tlc-engineers.com/>=20 =20 <http://www.tlc-engineers.com/> = http://www.tlc-engineers.com/images/TLC_Sig_Loc_Block.gif =20 From: equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org = [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James = Newman Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:00 PM To: Nick Caton; Arpan Bakshi Cc: equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org Subject: Re: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? =20 I'm curious as to what people think is better for having a thermal zone = that is open to another thermal zone. Is it better to delete the = interior wall completely, or is it better to put an air wall in place of = the interior wall? Which way models more appropriately? =20 James M. Newman, EIT, LEED AP project engineer / energy analyst =20 <http://www.me-engineers.com/> M-E Engineers, Inc. 10055 west 43rd avenue wheat ridge, co 80033 =20 office: 303.421.6655 direct: 720.898.3148 <mailto:james.newman@me-engineers.com> james.newman@me-engineers.com=20 =20 From: equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org = [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick = Caton Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 7:09 PM To: Arpan Bakshi Cc: equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org Subject: Re: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? =20 I think the "disparate-zone-instability" concern goes away because the = "gyp equivalent" air constructions will only permit a finite amount of = heat transfer each hour, and this transfer rate/direction is based = directly upon the hourly conditioned temperature difference (as = calculated from the previous hour), not directly from the amount of = internal heat loads generated in the present hour to be handled by the = associated systems. =20 Replacing air constructions (which use the U-factor input method) with a = frame partition or similar (layer method) will only fundamentally add = mass/thermal-lag to the equation (and will likely have a higher = R-factor). I suppose adding mass to the partitions would be a = mitigating remedy if you did have crazy swings of this nature causing = "instability" with regard to temperature throttling setpoints, but again = I don't think in the course of a normal model one would encounter this = problem. You'd have to almost be trying to create the problem - i.e. = making a an air partition with a monstrous area or re-defining the = u-factor of the air construction to be 9999 instead of 2.7 between two = disparate spaces... =20 =20 Kudos again to everyone helping me keep my head on straight =3D)! =20 ~Nick =20 cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB =20 NICK CATON, E.I.T. PROJECT ENGINEER Smith & Boucher Engineers 25501 west valley parkway olathe ks 66061 direct 913 344.0036 fax 913 345.0617 www.smithboucher.com=20 =20 From: Arpan Bakshi [mailto:arpanbakshi@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 6:09 PM To: Nick Caton Cc: Fleming, Joe; David Eldridge; <equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? =20 I second the setpoint-related zone instability concerns, particularly as = it pertains to unmet hours. What are everyone's thoughts on replacing = virtual air walls with constructed partitions along zone-to-zone = adjacencies, with disperate conditioning requirements? =20 =20 Arpan Bakshi =20 =20 On Jan 26, 2011, at 5:47 PM, "Nick Caton" <ncaton@smithboucher.com> = wrote: Thanks everyone for the replies - from this collective advice I've = identified an assumption related to my third "bullet" that led me astray = (and also makes all 4 "cases" seem like silly questions in hindsight): =20 =20 Air partitions are not "thermal superconductors." The wizard-generated = (and DOE-2 help files suggested) U-2.7 value for an Air wall = construction is comparable in thermal resistance to a single layer of = 3/8" Gyp, without the mass. I had the picture in my mind's eye that = these constructions were by default a few orders of magnitude higher in = conductivity, permitting any delta-T to be "instantly" resolved between = spaces, effectively tying the two spaces into one (thermally). From = that, I was concerned with how that might lead to setpoint-related = instability in the model or unpredictable behavior in how loads would be = distributed between in-equal systems and so forth...=20 =20 I'm also concluding the practice of defining air walls to have two = systems working together in the same zone is sound, however the = temperatures between the divided spaces will not "instantly equalize" as = I assumed. =20 =20 I think I'm on much more solid footing now - thanks fellas! =20 ~Nick =20 <image001.jpg> =20 NICK CATON, E.I.T. PROJECT ENGINEER Smith & Boucher Engineers 25501 west valley parkway olathe ks 66061 direct 913 344.0036 fax 913 345.0617 www.smithboucher.com=20 =20 From: Fleming, Joe [mailto:joe.fleming@tlc-eng.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 2:43 PM To: David Eldridge; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org Cc: Nick Caton Subject: RE: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? =20 With these ideas in mind, for assigning 2 systems to one zone. Maybe = you could set your second zone up as being contained entirely within the = other zone (set up as best as equest will allow for zone within a zone), = this way there is a maximum amount of heat transfer happening between = the two zones. =20 Let's say the goal is to try and see if a VAV box, in a given hour, has = enough air to cool both spaces so that a dedicate system doesn't need to = run to supplement it. The VAV minimum would be reached before = overcooling began (although you could double the minimum airflow, = assuming each zone is half of the space served by 2 systems), and once = enough overcooling occurs the reheat will initiate. So, in this case = there won't be much shared load between the two spaces separated by an = air wall, and the dedicated system will run as well... =20 Hmmm... Equest can't be entirely steady state, because iterations seem = to occur to decide if certain parts of a system need to initiate or not. = If equest wanted to decide whether or not to bring on a humidifier, it = should first need to run the loads one time to see if the unit, given = its airflow and supply temp, would lower the %rh enough to require = humidification, before initiating humidification. It would need to see = the final space temp after one iteration right? If this is the case then there would be a chance to shut off a system in = one of the zones if the heat transfer, after iteration #1, is enough to = satisfy the load. =20 Joe Fleming E.I., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP Mechanical Engineer II =20 TLC Engineering for Architecture Your 2030 Challenge Partner =20 800 Fairway Drive, Suite 250 Deerfield Beach, FL 33441-1816 =20 phone:=20 954-418-9096 fax:=20 954-418-9296 direct:=20 954-418-4591 website:=20 www.tlc-engineers.com =20 <http://www.tlc-engineers.com/> <image002.gif> =20 From: equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org = [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of David = Eldridge Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 3:20 PM To: equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org Subject: Re: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? =20 Although "highly-conductive" you wouldn't necessarily assume that the = space temperatures end up being identical - there is still some = resistance in your example, even if very small, and the area of = interface is not infinite either. =20 Your last example with area/volume - the heat transfer will be limited = by the size and thermal conductivity of this air wall. There are also = radiant and storage effects from the other surfaces in the zone that = might keep the two from being in equilibrium - that said your approach = may be fine as you may not have widely differing temperatures/loads. = One possible tweak might be to allocate your internal gains in these two = modeled spaces to load the separately modeled HVAC systems along how you = think they would actually perform in the real "two-system-one-zone" = space.=20 =20 David =20 = =20 =20 David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, HBDP Grumman/Butkus Associates = =20 =20 From: equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org = [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] = <mailto:%5bmailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org%5d> On = Behalf Of Nick Caton Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:49 AM To: equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org Subject: [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall? =20 Hi everyone, =20 A discussion on [bldg-sim] prompted me to bring up a topic that's been = bugging me in the "eQuest fundamentals" department... =20 =20 I have a general understanding that eQuest does not fundamentally model = airflow (specifically, convection of internal loads) between zones. - The DOE-2 entry for INT-WALL-TYPE says an internal "air" = partition " ...designates a non-physical interior surface with no mass = (i.e., an opening between spaces) across which convection can take = place." - A wizard-generated "air" internal partition has a = construction with U-factor of 2.7... very conductive. - To draw a conclusion - two zones connected with an "air" = partition are "connected" thermally. In practice, the internal loads in = one are "combined" with the other. - This means heat in one zone should travel to the other in a = rapid fashion during the hourly simulation, until the space temperatures = are identical between the two. =20 I hope my understanding thus far is correct, because from here I have = some questions that dig at what's going on under the hood: 1. Imagine an air partition "connects" zones A and B. These zones = have separate systems and separate thermostats with different setpoints. = If zone A's thermostat wants to be much warmer than zone B, is it = possible the systems will "fight" each other and cause mutual unmet = hours? 2. In the same setup, if Zone A is identical in geometry to Zone = B, but has 2x the internal/external loads, does it follow that the = system for System A will handle 2x the internal loads as System B, or = are they summed and applied equally to the two systems on an hourly = basis? =20 3. Is the "distribution of loads behavior" affected if Systems A & = B are specified with different capacities and/or airflows? =20 4. If one space is larger in area/volume than the other, does that = affect how the collective loads are distributed to the corresponding = systems? =20 I have "exploited" air partition behavior in the past to get around the = "one system per zone" rule (need two RTU's serving that space? Just = make an imaginary air wall!). However I want to be sure before I = continue this practice or advise others to do the same that there aren't = any major potential pitfalls in how the loads/systems are = distributed/affected... =20 ~Nick =20 <image001.jpg> =20 NICK CATON, E.I.T. PROJECT ENGINEER Smith & Boucher Engineers 25501 west valley parkway olathe ks 66061 direct 913 344.0036 fax 913 345.0617 www.smithboucher.com=20 =20 _______________________________________________ Equest-users mailing list http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to = EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG ------_=_NextPart_005_01CBBEFA.96B90380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:x=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" = xmlns:p=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:powerpoint" = xmlns:a=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:access" = xmlns:dt=3D"uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882" = xmlns:s=3D"uuid:BDC6E3F0-6DA3-11d1-A2A3-00AA00C14882" = xmlns:rs=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:rowset" xmlns:z=3D"#RowsetSchema" = xmlns:b=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:publisher" = xmlns:ss=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:spreadsheet" = xmlns:c=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:component:spreadsheet" = xmlns:odc=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:odc" = xmlns:oa=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:activation" = xmlns:html=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" = xmlns:q=3D"http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/" = xmlns:rtc=3D"http://microsoft.com/officenet/conferencing" = xmlns:D=3D"DAV:" xmlns:Repl=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/repl/" = xmlns:mt=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/meetings/" = xmlns:x2=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/excel/2003/xml" = xmlns:ppda=3D"http://www.passport.com/NameSpace.xsd" = xmlns:ois=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/ois/" = xmlns:dir=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/directory/" = xmlns:ds=3D"http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig#" = xmlns:dsp=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/dsp" = xmlns:udc=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc" = xmlns:xsd=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" = xmlns:sub=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/2002/1/alerts/"= xmlns:ec=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/04/xmlenc#" = xmlns:sp=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/" = xmlns:sps=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/" = xmlns:xsi=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" = xmlns:udcs=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/soap" = xmlns:udcxf=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/xmlfile" = xmlns:udcp2p=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/parttopart" = xmlns:st=3D"=01" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:ns1=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/workflow/" xmlns:ns2=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig-setup" xmlns:ns3=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig" xmlns:ns4=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/digital-signa= ture" xmlns:ns5=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/markup-compatibility/2006"= xmlns:ns6=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns:ns7=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/relationships= " xmlns:ns8=3D"http://microsoft.com/sharepoint/webpartpages" xmlns:ns9=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/types" xmlns:ns10=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/message= s" xmlns:ns11=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/SlideLibrary/"= xmlns:ns12=3D"http://microsoft.com/webservices/SharePointPortalServer/Pub= lishedLinksService" xmlns:ns13=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; 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mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1027" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple = style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Good explanation Nick. I wish we = had a way to make “<span class=3DSpellE>stickies</span>” on this = forum. It would save a lot of time.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span = style=3D'font-weight: bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Nick Caton<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, January 28, = 2011 9:44 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Fleming, Joe; James = Newman; Arpan Bakshi<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Joe/James:<o= :p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Deleted/No partition  - No heat transfer, no mass [Total = disconnect]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Adiabatic = – No heat transfer, Yes mass  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Standard = – Yes heat transfer, Yes mass (frame/mass partitions)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Air – = Yes heat transfer, No mass<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Internal = – No heat transfer, Yes mass (another means of specifying thermal mass in a space = – I haven’t used this myself)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>An = adiabatic surface will retain/store heat hour-to-hour because it has mass, but will not = transfer heat to or from another space.  If you take square room and delete = one of the walls, it is thermally a space with 3 walls only, regardless of the geometry.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Air walls = connecting separate zones are the closest thing to reality within these options for multiple zones in a single, unpartitioned space.  They impose a = finite limit on the amount of heat transfer that may occur each hour between spaces.  I’m unsure of whether jacking up their conductivity = (i.e. U=3D9999) would be closer to reality or would potentially cause instabilities in = the simulation, per discussion below, but the default U-2.7 is recommended = in the DOE2 help files. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></= o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><img = width=3D119 height=3D37 id=3D"_x0000_i1027" = src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01CBBED0.A8DC8390" alt=3D"cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span></font><b><font size=3D2 = color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus BT"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus = BT"; color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus = BT"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus = BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></= p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus = BT"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus = BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></font></b><b><font color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus = BT"><span style=3D'font-family:"Stylus = BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3D"#cc9900" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT = ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & = Boucher Engineers</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#cc9900"><span = style=3D'font-size: 7.5pt;color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west = valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font = size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#2D4D5E'>olathe</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font = size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#2D4D5E'> ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 = 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 = 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"www.smithboucher.com" = title=3D"blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></font></a></span><= /font><u><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:blue'> </span></font></u><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p><= /span></font></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = Fleming, Joe [mailto:joe.fleming@tlc-eng.com] <br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January = 27, 2011 11:13 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> James Newman; Nick = Caton; Arpan Bakshi<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: = [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>A deleted wall/partition may just be an adiabatic partition.  An air wall = might be the better choice here.  Not 100% = sure.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D;font-weight:b= old'>Joe Fleming<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><i><font size=3D2 color=3D"#333333" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#333333;font-style:it= alic'>E.I., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><i><font size=3D2 color=3D"#333333" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#333333;font-style:it= alic'>Mechanical Engineer II<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#006363" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#006363;font-weight:b= old'>TLC Engineering for Architecture<br> </span></font></b><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#006363" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#006363;font-weight:b= old'>Your 2030 Challenge Partner</span></font></b><b><font size=3D2 = color=3D"#006363" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#006363; font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address = w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#1F497D'>800 Fairway Drive, Suite = 250</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font = size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#1F497D'>Deerfield Beach</span></font></st1:City><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#1F497D'>, <st1:State w:st=3D"on">FL</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode = w:st=3D"on">33441-1816</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:place><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> </div> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 style=3D'mso-cellspacing:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <tr style=3D'mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes'> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><font = size=3D1 color=3D"#333333" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#333333'>phone: </span></font><font size=3D1 = color=3D"#555555" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#555555'><o:p></o:p></= span></font></p> </td> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>954-418-9096= <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </td> </tr> <tr style=3D'mso-yfti-irow:1'> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><font = size=3D1 color=3D"#333333" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#333333'>fax: </span></font><font size=3D1 = color=3D"#555555" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#555555'><o:p></o:p></= span></font></p> </td> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>954-418-9296= <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </td> </tr> <tr style=3D'mso-yfti-irow:2'> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><font = size=3D1 color=3D"#333333" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#333333'>direct: </span></font><font size=3D1 = color=3D"#555555" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#555555'><o:p></o:p></= span></font></p> </td> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>954-418-4591= <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </td> </tr> <tr style=3D'mso-yfti-irow:3;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes'> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><font = size=3D1 color=3D"#333333" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#333333'>website: </span></font><font size=3D1 = color=3D"#555555" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#555555'><o:p></o:p></= span></font></p> </td> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"http://www.tlc-engineers.com/">www.tlc-engineers.com</a><o:p></o:= p></span></font></p> </td> </tr> </table> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><a href=3D"http://www.tlc-engineers.com/"><font size=3D2 = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;text-decoration:none;text-u= nderline: none'><img border=3D0 width=3D700 height=3D49 id=3D"_x0000_i1025" src=3D"cid:image002.gif@01CBBED0.A8DC8390" alt=3D"http://www.tlc-engineers.com/images/TLC_Sig_Loc_Block.gif"></span>= </font></a></span></font><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family: Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span = style=3D'font-weight: bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>James Newman<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January = 27, 2011 6:00 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Nick Caton; Arpan = Bakshi<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I’m = curious as to what people think is better for having a  thermal zone that is open = to another thermal zone. Is it better to delete the interior wall = completely, or is it better to put an air wall in place of the interior wall? Which way = models more appropriately?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#87c139" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#87C139;font-weight:b= old'>James M. Newman, EIT, LEED AP<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#48494a" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#48494A'>project = engineer / energy analyst<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#87c139" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#87C139'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"http://www.me-engineers.com/"><b><font color=3D"#87c139"><span style=3D'color:#87C139;font-weight:bold'>M-E Engineers, = Inc.</span></font></b></a></span></font><b><u><font size=3D2 color=3D"#87c139" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family: Calibri;color:#87C139;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></u></b>= </p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address = w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=3D"#48494a" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#48494A'>10055 west 43rd = avenue</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font size=3D2 color=3D"#48494a" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Calibri;color:#48494A'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font = size=3D2 color=3D"#48494a" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#48494A'>wheat ridge</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font = size=3D2 color=3D"#48494a" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#48494A'>, co 80033<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#48494a" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#48494A'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#48494a" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#48494A'>office:&nbsp= ; 303.421.6655<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#48494a" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#48494A'>direct:&nbsp= ; 720.898.3148<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"mailto:james.newman@me-engineers.com"><font size=3D2 = color=3D"#595959"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#595959'>james.newman@me-engineers.com</s= pan></font></a></span></font><font size=3D2 color=3D"#595959" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Calibri;color:#595959'> </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3D"#48494a" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#48494A'><o:p></o:p><= /span></font></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org = [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Nick = Caton<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January = 26, 2011 7:09 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Arpan Bakshi<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I think the “disparate-zone-instability” concern goes away because the = “gyp equivalent” air constructions will only permit a finite amount of heat transfer each = hour, and this transfer rate/direction is based directly upon the hourly = conditioned temperature difference (as calculated from the previous hour), not = directly from the amount of internal heat loads generated in the present hour to = be handled by the associated systems.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Replacing = air constructions (which use the U-factor input method) with a frame = partition or similar (layer method) will only fundamentally add mass/thermal-lag to = the equation (and will likely have a higher R-factor).  I suppose = adding mass to the partitions would be a mitigating remedy if you did have crazy = swings of this nature causing “instability” with regard to temperature = throttling setpoints, but again I don’t think in the course of a normal model one would = encounter this problem.  You’d have to almost be trying to create the = problem – i.e. making a an air partition with a monstrous area or re-defining the = u-factor of the air construction to be 9999 instead of 2.7 between two disparate spaces…  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Kudos again = to everyone helping me keep my head on straight = =3D)!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></= o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><img = border=3D0 width=3D119 height=3D37 id=3D"Picture_x005f_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01CBBED0.A8DC8390" = alt=3D"cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span></font><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus BT"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Stylus = BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus = BT"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus = BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></= p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus = BT"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Stylus = BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></font></b><b><font color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus = BT"><span style=3D'font-family:"Stylus = BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3D"#cc9900" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT = ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & = Boucher Engineers</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#cc9900"><span = style=3D'font-size: 7.5pt;color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west = valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font = size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#2D4D5E'>olathe</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font = size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:#2D4D5E'> ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 = 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 = 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"www.smithboucher.com" = title=3D"blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></font></a></span><= /font><u><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DCalibri><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri; color:blue'> </span></font></u><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p><= /span></font></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" = face=3DCalibri><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> <= /o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Arpan = Bakshi [mailto:arpanbakshi@gmail.com] <br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January = 26, 2011 6:09 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Nick Caton<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Fleming, Joe; David = Eldridge; <equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'>I second the setpoint-related zone instability concerns, = particularly as it pertains to unmet hours. What are everyone's thoughts on replacing virtual air walls with constructed partitions along zone-to-zone = adjacencies, with disperate conditioning requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'>Arpan Bakshi<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dapple-style-span><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br> On Jan 26, 2011, at 5:47 PM, "Nick Caton" <<a href=3D"mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>Thanks everyone for the replies – from this = collective advice I’ve identified an assumption related to my third = “bullet” that led me astray (and also makes all 4 “cases” seem like silly questions in = hindsight):  </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>Air partitions are not “thermal = superconductors.”  The wizard-generated (and DOE-2 help files suggested) U-2.7 value for an Air = wall construction is comparable in thermal resistance to a single layer of = 3/8” Gyp, without the mass.  I had the picture in my mind’s eye that = these constructions were by default a few orders of magnitude higher in = conductivity, permitting any delta-T to be “instantly” resolved between = spaces, effectively tying the two spaces into one (thermally).  From that, I was = concerned with how that might lead to setpoint-related instability in the model or unpredictable behavior in how loads would be distributed between = in-equal systems and so forth… </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>I’m also concluding the practice of defining air = walls to have two systems working together in the same zone is sound, however the temperatures between the divided spaces will not “instantly = equalize” as I assumed.  </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>I think I’m on much more solid footing now – = thanks fellas!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>~Nick</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'><image001.jpg></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus BT"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Stylus = BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'> </span></font></b><o:p></o:p></= p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus BT"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'>NICK CATON, = E.I.T.</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D1 color=3D"#cc9900" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt; color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher = Engineers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe</span></font></st1:place>= </st1:City><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'> ks = 66061</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"www.smithboucher.com" title=3D"blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><font size=3D2><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></font></a></span><= /font><u><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> = </span></font></u><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight: bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Fleming, Joe = [mailto:joe.fleming@tlc-eng.com] <br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January = 26, 2011 2:43 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> David Eldridge; <a href=3D"mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.one= building.org</a><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Nick Caton<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: = [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>With these ideas in mind, for assigning 2 systems to one zone.  Maybe you could set your second zone up as being contained = entirely within the other zone (set up as best as equest will allow for zone = within a zone), this way there is a maximum amount of heat transfer happening = between the two zones.   </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>Let's say the goal is to try and see if a VAV box, in a = given hour, has enough air to cool both spaces so that a dedicate system = doesn't need to run to supplement it.  The VAV minimum would be reached before overcooling began (although you could double the minimum airflow, = assuming each zone is half of the space served by 2 systems), and once enough = overcooling occurs the reheat will initiate.  So, in this case there won't be = much shared load between the two spaces separated by an air wall, and the = dedicated system will run as well...  </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>Hmmm...  Equest can't be entirely steady state, = because iterations seem to occur to decide if certain parts of a system need to = initiate or not.  If equest wanted to decide whether or not to bring on a humidifier, it should first need to run the loads one time to see if the = unit, given its airflow and supply temp, would lower the %rh enough to require humidification, before initiating humidification.  It would need to = see the final space temp after one iteration = right?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>If this is the case then there would be a chance to shut = off a system in one of the zones if the heat transfer, after iteration #1, is = enough to satisfy the load.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold'>Joe = Fleming</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><font size=3D2 color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#333333;font-style:italic'>E.I., LEED AP BD+C, = BEMP</span></font></i><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><font size=3D2 color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#333333;font-style:italic'>Mechanical Engineer = II</span></font></i><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#006363" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#006363;font-weight:bold'>TLC Engineering for Architecture<br> </span></font></b><b><font size=3D2 color=3D"#006363"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#006363;font-weight:bold'>Your 2030 Challenge = Partner</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>800 Fairway Drive, Suite = 250</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Deerfield Beach</span></font></st1:City><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>, <st1:State = w:st=3D"on">FL</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode = w:st=3D"on">33441-1816</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:place><o:p></o= :p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 style=3D'mso-cellspacing:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <tr style=3D'mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes'> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;text-align:right'><font size=3D1 color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Times = New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>phone: </span></font><o:p></= o:p></p> </td> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D'>954-418-9096</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> <tr style=3D'mso-yfti-irow:1'> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;text-align:right'><font size=3D1 color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Times = New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>fax: </span></font><o:p></o:= p></p> </td> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D'>954-418-9296</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> <tr style=3D'mso-yfti-irow:2'> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;text-align:right'><font size=3D1 color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Times = New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>direct: </span></font><o:p><= /o:p></p> </td> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D'>954-418-4591</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> <tr style=3D'mso-yfti-irow:3;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes'> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;text-align:right'><font size=3D1 color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Times = New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;color:#333333'>website: </span></font><o:p>= </o:p></p> </td> <td valign=3Dbottom style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"http://www.tlc-engineers.com">www.tlc-engineers.com</a></span></f= ont><o:p></o:p></p> </td> </tr> </table> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><a href=3D"http://www.tlc-engineers.com/"><span = style=3D'text-decoration:none; text-underline:none'><image002.gif></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></f= ont></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight: bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href=3D"mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-b= ounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b><span = style=3D'font-weight: bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>David Eldridge<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January = 26, 2011 3:20 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.one= building.org</a><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [Equest-users] What's in an Air Wall?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:black'>Although “highly-conductive” you wouldn’t = necessarily assume that the space temperatures end up being identical – there is still = some resistance in your example, even if very small, and the area of interface is not = infinite either.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:black'>Your last example with area/volume – the heat = transfer will be limited by the size and thermal conductivity of this air wall.  = There are also radiant and storage effects from the other surfaces in the zone = that might keep the two from being in equilibrium – that said your approach = may be fine as you may not have widely differing temperatures/loads.  One possible = tweak might be to allocate your internal gains in these two modeled spaces to = load the separately modeled HVAC systems along how you think they would = actually perform in the real “two-system-one-zone” space. = </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:black'>David</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><u><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:black'>          =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;           &nbsp= ;            =              </span></font></u><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:8.0pt; color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'>David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, = HBDP</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#244061" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#244061;font-weight:bold'>Grumman/Butkus = Associates</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><u><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:black'>          =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;           &nbsp= ;            =              </span></font></u><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight: bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href=3D"mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-b= ounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> <a = href=3D"mailto:%5bmailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org%5d">[= mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]</a> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Nick = Caton<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January = 26, 2011 11:49 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.one= building.org</a><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Equest-users] = What's in an Air Wall?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hi = everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>A = discussion on [bldg-sim] prompted me to bring up a topic that’s been bugging me = in the “eQuest fundamentals” department…  = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I = have a general understanding that eQuest does not fundamentally model airflow = (specifically, convection of internal loads) between = zones.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3Dmsolistparagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>-</span></font><font size=3D1><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>       &nbsp= ;  </span></font>The DOE-2 entry for INT-WALL-TYPE says an internal = “air” partition “ …designates a non-physical interior surface with no mass = (i.e., an opening between spaces) across which convection can take = place.”<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3Dmsolistparagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>-</span></font><font size=3D1><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>       &nbsp= ;  </span></font>A wizard-generated “air” internal partition = has a construction with U-factor of 2.7… very conductive.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3Dmsolistparagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>-</span></font><font size=3D1><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>       &nbsp= ;  </span></font> To draw a conclusion – two zones connected = with an “air” partition are “connected” thermally.  In practice, the = internal loads in one are “combined” with the other.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3Dmsolistparagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>-</span></font><font size=3D1><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>       &nbsp= ;  </span></font>This means heat in one zone should travel to the other in = a rapid fashion during the hourly simulation, until the space temperatures are identical between the two.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I = hope my understanding thus far is correct, because from here I have some = questions that dig at what’s going on under the = hood:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3Dmsolistparagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1.</span></font><font size=3D1><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>       = </span></font>Imagine an air partition “connects” zones A and B.  These zones = have separate systems and separate thermostats with different setpoints.  If zone = A’s thermostat wants to be much warmer than zone B, is it possible the = systems will “fight” each other and cause mutual unmet = hours?<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3Dmsolistparagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>2.</span></font><font size=3D1><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>       = </span></font>In the same setup, if Zone A is identical in geometry to Zone B, but has 2x = the internal/external loads, does it follow that the system for System A = will handle 2x the internal loads as System B, or are they summed and applied equally to the two systems on an hourly basis?  <o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3Dmsolistparagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>3.</span></font><font size=3D1><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>       = </span></font>Is the “distribution of loads behavior” affected if Systems A = & B are specified with different capacities and/or airflows? =   <o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3Dmsolistparagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>4.</span></font><font size=3D1><span = style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>       = </span></font>If one space is larger in area/volume than the other, does that affect how = the collective loads are distributed to the corresponding systems?<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I = have “exploited” air partition behavior in the past to get around the “one system = per zone” rule (need two RTU’s serving that space?  Just make an imaginary = air wall!).  However I want to be sure before I continue this practice = or advise others to do the same that there aren’t any major potential = pitfalls in how the loads/systems are = distributed/affected…<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><image001.jpg><o:p></o:p></span></font><= /p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus BT"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Stylus = BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'> </span></font></b><o:p></o:p></= p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Stylus BT"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E;font-weight:bold'>NICK CATON, = E.I.T.</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D1 color=3D"#cc9900" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:7.5pt; color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#2D4D5E'>Smith & Boucher = Engineers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west valley parkway</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe</span></font></st1:place>= </st1:City><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'> ks = 66061</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913 344.0036</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D2 color=3D"#2d4d5e" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913 345.0617</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt; color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"www.smithboucher.com" title=3D"blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><font size=3D2><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></font></a></span><= /font><u><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> = </span></font></u><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> <p 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