<div>Hi Maria,</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your response. Can you provide a direct link to the AHRI page that has the fan power rating conditions?</div><div><br></div><div>Hi Nick,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your response.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I haven't found anything in the glossary that helps me. Are there any specific references you can point me to?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div><div><br></div><div>--</div><div>Karen</div><div>
<br></div><div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Nick Caton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hi Karen,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Apologies if I haven’t been following closely enough, but
I think you may be unnecessarily complicating the issue for yourself… if in
doubt, turn to the 90.1 glossary (section 3) regarding whether the efficiency
metrics are/aren’t inclusive. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">EER is a simple ratio of total input power to net cooling
capacity. It includes fan power. SEER is the same idea, only it’s
weighted over a “normal” annual period. Again it includes fan
energy.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">While pulling the (calculated) baseline fan energy out of the
prescribed EER/SEER values may result in “unrealistic looking” efficiencies,
that’s normal because fans are a big part of energy used by packaged
equipment! </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Put simply and correcting your last statement: All
Appendix G baseline model system types require fan energy calcs. These
energies can be subtracted from the “fan-inclusive” EER/SEER efficiencies
prescribed in Section 6 to determine cooling EIR figures. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hope that helps! </span></p><div class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><img width="119" height="37" src="?ui=2&ik=f241c1e956&view=att&th=12dde76a28cf01bd&attid=0.1&disp=emb&zw" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"> </span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
</div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen
Walkerman</span></p><div class="im"><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 31, 2011 4:55 PM<br>
</div><b>To:</b> Sam Mason; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><div class="im"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE Appendix G EER Calculation</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Sam,</p>
</div><div class="im">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I guess my question is the definition of
"packaged" for the baseline system case. Systems 1 and 2 are
very clearly packaged systems, with relatively low fan power. The fan
power calculation reflects this, with much lower fan powers for these systems.
However, systems 5 and 6 are called "packaged" systems, but
these systems typically serve a large portion of a building with more extensive
ductwork and higher fan powers (reflected in the fan power calculation),
subtracting out fan powers from these systems and manipulating the EER of these
systems results in very high EERs (upwards of 18???). </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is unclear to me which air conditioners listed in section
6.8 have a rating which includes fan power and which do not. I am
assuming that where different "single package" and "split
system" EERs are given, that the first includes fan energy while the
second does not.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anyway, it seems that to model baseline systems, the
simplest approach is to choose the split system EER (if listed) in section 6.8,
and calculate the fan power according to the G3.1.2.9 guidelines.
Therefore, the only time you would have to do the calculation mentioned by Sam
is for a proposed design system where the fan energy is included in the EER.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karen</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 31, 2011 4:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Arpan Bakshi; Sam Mason<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span></p><div class="im"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE Appendix G EER Calculation</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Mr. Sam is referencing/providing:</span></p><div class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">User’s Manual for ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA Standard 90.1-2007</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Example 11-C “Calculating COP for Compressor and
Condenser”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">(Found on page 11-18)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="119" height="37" src="?ui=2&ik=f241c1e956&view=att&th=12dde76a28cf01bd&attid=0.1&disp=emb&zw" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">Smith & Boucher Engineers</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"> </span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
</div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Sam Mason <<a href="mailto:sam.mason@atelierten.com" target="_blank">sam.mason@atelierten.com</a>> wrote:</p><div><div class="h5">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Karen,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">From the user’s guide, the fan
power should be removed from the standard EER rating of packaged cooling
systems. Excerpt below but let me know if you have any further questions.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">A
15-ton packaged rooftop single-zone system having an </span><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">EER </span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">of 8.6 (</span><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">COP
</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">of
2.5) is</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">specified
for a building. The following table gives the design specifications. How should</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">this
be modeled?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">Equipment
parameter
Value</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">Net
Cooling Capacity
(Btu/h)
174,000</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">Total
Packaged Unit Input Power (W) 20,128</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt">EER
</span></i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">8.64</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">Gross
Cooling Cap (ARI conditions) 182,000</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:18.0pt">A</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">The
supply fan power is the difference between the gross and the net cooling
capacity.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:TimesNewRoman">Supply
Fan Power = (182,000 - 174,000 Btu / h) / 3.413 Btu /W h = </span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Symbol"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:TimesNewRoman">2343 W</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">From
the equation for cooling system </span><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">COP</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">, the cooling provided
by the compressor and</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">the
condenser into the airstream in Btu/h per Btu/h of electrical power input is:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:TimesNewRoman">COP
= (182,000 Btu / h) / {(20,128 - 2343 W)* 3.413 Btu / W h } = 3.0</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">Some
simulation programs use an energy input ratio (</span><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">EIR</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">), which is 1/</span><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">COP</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">.
In this case,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">the </span><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt">EIR </span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">for this piece of equipment would be 1/3 or
0.333.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">--</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">Sam Mason</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">Atelier Ten</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">T +1 212 254 4500 x221</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen Walkerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 31, 2011 3:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE Appendix G EER Calculation</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">A
clarification:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My
question pertains to baseline models, with baseline systems.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karen</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Karen Walkerman <<a href="mailto:kwalkerman@gmail.com" target="_blank">kwalkerman@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi
All,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">G3.1.2.1
in ASHRAE 90.1 says that "Where efficiency ratings, such as EER and COP,
include fan energy, the descriptor shall be broken down into its components so
that supply fan energy can be modeled separately."</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">However,
I am a little unclear as to which baseline systems this applies to. It
seems that it would apply to systems 1 - 2, and not to systems 3 - 8?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karen</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br>