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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I would also add that, while lighting
loads could be modeled differently in the baseline and proposed models, ventilation
fans should be modeled identically. One exception to that would be if proposed
fan motors exceed minimum motor efficiencies in Table 10.8. Another
possible exception might be if ventilation fans were equipped with VFDs and automatically
controlled by carbon monoxide sensors, but you’d have to prove your
savings through an Exceptional Calculation Method.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Clark Denson, PE, CEM, LEED AP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>SSRCx</span><sup><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>®</span></sup><span
style='color:#1F497D'>, LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>(615) 383-1113<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Bishop, Bill
[mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; Richard Auffermann; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 - Appendix G - Parking Garages<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>While parking garages may not be considered “spaces”
per ASHRAE, I think lighting should still be modeled differently for baseline
and proposed per Appendix G, and not considered a process load. “Lighting
power for parking garages and building facades shall be modeled” per
Table G3.1, and baseline lighting is determined per Section 9.2, where values
for parking garage lighting power appear in both the Building Area and
Space-by-Space Tables. You could attach these (different) lighting loads
directly to a meter, as Nick suggests, if you don’t model the parking
garage as a space in the model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>~Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:black'>William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP </span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:#006600'>|</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:black'>Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mechanical Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:5.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600"
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<o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t" />
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<v:imagedata src="cid:image003.jpg@01CBB723.28B91E30" o:title="Top 100 Rochester 2010" />
</v:shape><![endif]--><![if !vml]><span style='mso-ignore:vglayout;position:
absolute;z-index:-1;margin-left:367px;margin-top:17px;width:60px;height:58px'><img
width=60 height=58 src="cid:image003.jpg@01CBB723.28B91E30" v:shapes="_x0000_s1026"></span><![endif]><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>134 South
Fitzhugh Street</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy'> </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Rochester,
NY 14608</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>T: (585) 325-6004 </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Ext. 114</span><span style='color:navy'> </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>F: (585)
325-6005</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a> </span><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/">www.pathfinder-ea.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;
color:green'>P</span><span style='color:green'> </span><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;color:green'>Sustainability – the forest AND the
trees.</span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'> P </span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 17, 2011 6:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Richard Auffermann; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 - Appendix G - Parking Garages</span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>These definitions came up during review of one of my recent LEED
projects. For future reference, 90.1 questions may be seen by a group
more keen to respond if you post to the [bldg-rate] list.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>I've got a definite position if you'd like to hear:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>1. As you point out, per the definition of "<b><i>unconditioned
space</i></b>," parking garages are "…<u>not considered
enclosed spaces</u>." Whether in design it's actually conditioned or
not has no bearing on this statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>2. All of the definitions for space classifications, and indeed
the definition for "<b><i>space</i></b>," start with "an <u>enclosed
space</u>..." Therefore no parking garage can be considered "<b><i>conditioned</i></b>"
or "<b><i>semiheated</i></b>," or even as a "<b><i>space</i></b>."
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>3. This also means by extension (re: section 5.1.2): There are
no envelope requirements for parking garages, as they are not "<b><i>spaces</i></b>"
of any classification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>If you reject this approach and instead assert a parking garage
can be a "<b><i>conditioned space</i></b>," you'd be forced down a
path of assigning identical heating/cooling systems to parking garage spaces in
both proposed and baseline models, per Table G3.1.1.b, regardless of whether
it's actually conditioned or not. Things might get hairy if you're only
heating or only cooling (I believe the other would need to match the baseline
serving the rest of the floor/building, as may apply). I'd only suggest
that requiring heating/cooling of parking garages in all climates seems odd for
an energy efficiency standard - you'd have to explain that one to me ;).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>If you do have heating and/or cooling for a parking garage
design, I'd personally stick with points #1/#2 above and simply model such
energies as a process load alongside any mechanical ventilation systems,
identical in both models. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>I personally use eQuest, and prefer to model parking garages as
simply as a series of building shades with a series of process/lighting loads
attached directly to the meter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>All this is my take on the situation. I think it’s
pretty defensible, but there may have been CIR’s I’m unaware of to
the contrary – not that precedent matters anymore...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>Hope that helps you and others,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#002060'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=119 height=37 id="Picture_x005f_x0020_1"
src="cid:image004.jpg@01CBB723.28B91E30" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"><b><span
style='font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT";color:#2D4D5E'>NICK
CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Stylus BT";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Smith &
Boucher Engineers</span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west
valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'> ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913
344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913
345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span></u><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Richard Auffermann<br>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 3:44 PM<br>
To: bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 90.1 - Appendix G - Parking Garages<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I have a questions about the modeling of Parking Garages
for ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix G energy model<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>As I was looking up the definition of a conditioned and
semi-heated space in Section 3 of ASHRAE 90.1 I noticed that under the
definition of an "unconditioned space" it states that
"Crawlspaces, attics, and parking garages with natural or mechanical
ventilation are not considered enclosed spaces." In addition the
definition of "ventilation" is "the process of supplying or
removing air by natural or mechanical means to or from any space. Such air is
not required to have been conditioned." Since the air is not required to
be conditioned then the air can or cannot be conditioned, does that mean that
any parking garage conditioned or unconditioned is not considered an enclosed
space? If that is true then how do you model a parking garage since all spaces
are defined as being enclosed?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Richard Auffermann<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>DAGHER ENGINEERING, PLLC<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>29 Broadway, New York, NY 10006<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>T. 212.480.2591 x122<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>F. 212.480.2654<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>rauffermann@dagherengineering.com<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>www.dagherengineering.com<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
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