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<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">That
is a good point about the exception size of 20,000 ft2 for baseline systems,
and I think the USGBC and/or GBCI would be justified in issuing a general
clarification about how to specifically approach fire stations as many of them
are LEED registered based on municipal requirements, and they very frequently
will have this mixture of usage types and small conditioned areas. For
fire stations, this isn't an exception, it is the rule!</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">My
own LEED Gold fire station project was under v2.1, so I can’t help you
there.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">The
requirements for the Apparatus Bay spaces are so wildly different than the
residential areas that logically they should be separate systems, regardless of
the noted exceptions…these are clearly two different building types, even
if each is below the 20,000 ft2 individually. Or even sometimes in
total! And we haven’t even reached the “office” spaces
in the building yet… </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Also
you may want to raise the issue on bldg-sim rather than equest-users, as this
could come up for users of all software packages? </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">David</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">
</span></font></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold">David S. Eldridge, Jr.</span></font></b><b><font color="#244061"><span style="color:#244061;font-weight:bold">, P</span></font></b><b><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold">.</span></font></b><b><font color="#244061"><span style="color:#244061;font-weight:bold">E</span></font></b><b><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold">.</span></font></b><b><font color="#244061"><span style="color:#244061;font-weight:bold">, LEED AP BD+C,
BEMP, HBDP</span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Project Manager</span></font><font size="2" color="#244061"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#244061"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:4.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#365f91" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#365F91">Direct: (847) 316-92</span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:#1F497D">24</span></font><font color="#365f91"><span style="color:#365F91"> | Fax: (</span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:#1F497D">847</span></font><font color="#365f91"><span style="color:#365F91">) </span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:#1F497D">328</span></font><font color="#365f91"><span style="color:#365F91">-</span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:#1F497D">4550</span></font><font color="#365f91"><span style="color:#365F91"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://www.grummanbutkus.com"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">http://www.grummanbutkus.com</span></font></a><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:#1F497D"></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="#244061" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#244061;font-weight:bold">Grumman/Butkus
Associates</span></font></b><font color="gray"><span style="color:gray"> </span></font><font color="#365f91"><span style="color:#365F91">| 820 Davis Street, Suite 300 |
Evanston, IL 60201</span></font><font size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" color="gray" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;color:gray">Energy Efficiency Consultants and Sustainable Design
Engineers</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">
</span></font></u></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
-----Original Message-----</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
From: <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-">equest-users-</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
<a href="mailto:bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Jeremy Poling</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:52 AM</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
To: Cam Fitzgerald; Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.; equest-users; bldg-sim-</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
<a href="mailto:subscribe@onebuilding.org">subscribe@onebuilding.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] fire station modeling</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Also, see the note at the bottom of Table G3.1.1A: "Where attributes</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
make a building eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
predominant condition to determine the system type for the entire</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
building." The USGBC/GBCI and ASHRAE have both ruled that the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
predominant condition is determined by which type has the largest</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
percentage of the total area.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
I would recommend contacting the reviewers either through LEED-Online or</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
through the GBCI "Contact us" page (select the topic "Questions
about</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Review Comments") if you can show with area calculations that the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
percentage of the residential quarters at the station is less than the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
other functions. The reviewers will probably count the vehicle bays as</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
part of the residential so I would do the same just to limit the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
back-and-forth.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
-----Original Message-----</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
From: <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Cam</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Fitzgerald</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:07 AM</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
To: Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.; equest-users;</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-subscribe@onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-subscribe@onebuilding.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] fire station modeling</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Patrick,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
If you look in Section 3.2 of 90.1-2004, the definition for</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
"residential" lists fire stations as the last example of residential</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
space types. Hope this helps.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Cam Fitzgerald</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
-----Original Message-----</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
From: <a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] On Behalf Of Patrick</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
J. O'Leary, Jr.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:51 AM</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
To: equest-users; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-subscribe@onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-subscribe@onebuilding.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Subject: [Equest-users] fire station modeling</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
has anyone received a comment on eac1 requiring the use of residential</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
ptac systems in the baseline building when modeling fire stations? i</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
have seen the following comments on two fire station projects recently</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
with no further background material concerning the source of the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
residential determination from the reviewers than the statements below.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
this, to me, is not what previous usgbc cirs, 90.1 (2004 or 2007), or</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
the 90.1 user's manual say. per 90.1 and the previous usgbc cirs
the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
predominant use of the building, based on sf and number of stories,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
determine what type of systems are used. for a building less than</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
20,000 sf this is typically going to be packaged gas or heat pump units.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
project 1 (leed v2.2 project)</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
"The Baseline system type modeled does not seem consistent with the</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
system mapping from Table G.3.1.1.A. Please note the GBCI has determined</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
that Fire Stations are considered residential for the purposes of</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
completing EAc1 credit. Please confirm that the Baseline system (and</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
principle heating source) was modeled correctly, or revise the system</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
type to reflect ASHRAE modeling protocol. Also, if any exceptions are</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
utilized from G3.1.1 please provide a explanation for the exception."</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
project 2 (leed v2.2 project)</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
"5. Table 1.4 indicates the Baseline Primary HVAC system as a type #3,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
which does not appear to be consistent with the system mapping from</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Table G.3.1.1.A. The sleeping quarters (residential) should be modeled</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
as a system type #1 and the non-residential areas as a type #3. Please</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
provide a narrative confirming that the Baseline model sleeping quarters</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
have been modeled using System #1, Constant Volume PTAC, with DX</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
cooling, and Fossil Fuel boiler. The narrative shall also include size</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
of equipment modeled within the Baseline model. Revise Baseline Unitary</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Equipment Cooling and Boiler parameters to match Tables 6.8.1A and</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
6.8.1E of ASHRAE 90.1-2004 and include Proposed Unitary Equipment</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
Cooling and size of the boilers. Please revise the Baseline and Proposed</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
models, and update the Template, and supporting documentation as</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
required. Please confirm that the parameters defined in section G3.1.3.2</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
through G3.1.2.5 have been modeled, and that the mandatory requirements</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
of Section 6.4 have been adhered to. Please add sufficient information</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
to Table 1.4 to confirm that the Baseline boiler systems were modeled in</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
accordance with these requirements"</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
the usgbc cir & 90.1 references:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
1. USGBC Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED (page 17) - Table 2.2, CIR</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
dated 8/26/2008 and 4/23/2008. "Clarifies how to determine baseline HVAC</span></font></p>
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</span></font></p>
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system(s) for building eligible for more than one system type."</span></font></p>
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-"CIR dated 8/26/2008 states that for projects with multiple uses in the</span></font></p>
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</span></font></p>
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same building, predominant condition as determined by total floor area</span></font></p>
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should determine system type for entire building. Ruling references</span></font></p>
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note following Table G3.1.1A in ASHRAE 90.1-2004: Where attributes make</span></font></p>
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</span></font></p>
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a building eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the</span></font></p>
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predominant condition to determine the system type for the entire</span></font></p>
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building."</span></font></p>
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-"CIR dated 4/23/2008 confirms that when conditions do not vary per</span></font></p>
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exceptions to G3.1.1, project teams must use single baseline system type</span></font></p>
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</span></font></p>
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for entire building. HOwever, if project includes multiple detached</span></font></p>
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buildings, each building can use different system type; this is</span></font></p>
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addressed in Chapter 4 of document."</span></font></p>
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</span></font></p>
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2. 90.1-2004 Table G3.1.1A Note 3 - "Where attributes make a
building</span></font></p>
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eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the predominant</span></font></p>
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condition to determine the system type for the entire building."</span></font></p>
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</span></font></p>
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3. 90.1-2004 Section G3.1.1 Exception (a) - "Use additional system</span></font></p>
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type(s) for non-predominant conditions (i.e. residential/nonresidential</span></font></p>
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or heating source) if those conditions apply to more than 20,000 sf of</span></font></p>
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conditioned floor area." (Note the fire stations in the two projects</span></font></p>
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with the comments above are each less than 14,000 sf of conditioned</span></font></p>
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floor area.)</span></font></p>
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</span></font></p>
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4. 90.1-2004 User's Manual - "The scope of Standard 90.1, in terms
of</span></font></p>
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residential spaces, applies just to spaces with four or more stories, so</span></font></p>
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</span></font></p>
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low-rise residential is excluded."</span></font></p>
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</span></font></p>
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regards,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">>
patrick</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><font size="2" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></font></p>
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