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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'>I agree with Bill in that it definitely needs to be included.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'>On one hand, if the decorative burners are never mentioned in
the project with LEED, then they wouldn’t know to look for it – HOWEVER,
that would be rather unethical given that as Bill mentioned, <i>all energy
consumption</i> must be included in the model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'>If the decorations are temporary and only for a very specific, one-off
event for a short period of time then they could reasonably be excluded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'>Given they are gas and not electric, I would not put them in as
an electrical process load. The decorative burners could be added on not in the
energy model itself but directly into the LEED Submittal Template. The Templates
provide spaces to add extra inputs and extra/exceptional calculations. The
energy use and cost could be manually calculated and then use the natural gas
virtual rates from the project (or the actual gas rates of the actual fuel type)
as long as they are in both the baseline and proposed case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'>As long as your work is well documented and justifiable then it should
be ok – but I would be prepare the client for a LEED Clarification on
that regardless given its unique nature.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#00B050'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #888888; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #fd3224; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: FR"
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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #fd3224; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: FR"
lang=FR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #fd3224; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: FR"
lang=FR><STRONG>Christopher</STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #fd3224; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> <STRONG>Zabaneh</STRONG>,
LEED AP BD+C</SPAN></P></SPAN>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: FR"
lang=FR><o:p> </o:p></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-ansi-language: FR"
lang=FR>Davis Langdon <o:p></o:p></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #717074; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-ansi-language: FR"
lang=FR>301 Arizona Avenue<br />Suite 301</SPAN><BR><SPAN
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CA 90401 </SPAN><B><SPAN
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(310) 393-9411 x 2160</SPAN><B><SPAN
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(310) 393-7493<BR></SPAN><I><SPAN
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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #717074; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><BR><A
style="COLOR: #717074" title=""
href="http://www.davislangdon.com/USA/Research/ResearchFinder/Davis-Langdon-Greening-Report/"><FONT
color=#717074>A carbon neutral company</FONT></A></SPAN></B><BR> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
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<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></o:p></SPAN><br><div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop,
Bill<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 16, 2010 11:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Exterior Gas Powered Torches<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>My understanding of the intent of ASHRAE Standard 90.1 and LEED
EAc1 is that all building energy is to be included, so the energy needs to be
accounted for. I don’t think you can exclude it just because it is
exterior to the building. You don’t exclude other exterior features like
lighting and snow melt systems. I would consider an exterior gas-powered
decoration as either a process load, or an exterior lighting load. If it is
exterior lighting, the project may exceed the exterior lighting power allowance
(90.1 Section 9.4), which is a prerequisite. (Editorial comment - If I worked
on the project, I would take this approach to try to get the torches removed,
since I find the prospect of gas powered decorations silly for any building,
especially a LEED project.) If you treat them as a process load, then you put
the same load in baseline and proposed. I think you have to include them if
they fall within the LEED project boundary, since all building energy use is
supposed to be covered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:black'>William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED<sup>®</sup> AP </span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:#006600'>|</span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:black'>Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium Cond","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mechanical Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:5.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>134 South Fitzhugh Street</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
color:navy'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Rochester, NY 14608</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:navy'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>T: (585) 325-6004 </span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Ext. 114</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
color:navy'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>F: (585) 325-6005</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>www.pathfinder-ea.com</span><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;
color:green'>P</span><span style='color:green'> </span><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;color:green'>Sustainability – less is more.</span><span
style='color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol
Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Exterior Gas Powered Torches</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I think I'd tend not to include
it but in any case it would be the same in either the proposed or baseline, a
good reason not to include it.<br>
<br>
Carol<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Chris <<a
href="mailto:floodyc@gmail.com">floodyc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#000066'>Our
proposed design has exterior gas powered flame-torches for decorative purposes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#000066'>The
energy consumption of these torches could be significant compared to the
building energy consumption as it is quite a small building.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#000066'>Has
anyone had experience with this design from a LEED perspective. Does it need to
be included in the LEED model?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#000066'>The
preference is that it does not need to be included considering the high energy
consumption.<br clear=all>
</span><br>
-- <br>
Chris Flood BSc (Eng)<br>
Senior Building Analyst & Energy Modeller<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Carol Gardner PE<o:p></o:p></p>
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