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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter et.al,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sorry for the delay in responding to the string. I’ve tried to
summarize the questions/answers below and have combined responses and added my
own content in places I think appropriate…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]>Can
anyone tell me when modeling a lab system with fume hoods as to whether the
baseline systems are to be modeled as constant volume?<span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>VIKRAM: </span>I think that
depends on the total volume of exhaust. I don't have it in front of me, but I
think if your exhaust is more than a certain amount you have to have either
energy recovery to fifty percent or vav flow.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>VARUN: </span>I think it also
depends on the software you are using to model a fume hood. Because if exhaust
is specified more than the supply due to the hood, the software may
disregard the lower supply and equate the higher value of exhaust to the supply.
I am also trying to model a VAV exhaust fume hood and facing a lot of
problems doing it. So you have to figure out a way to control you exhaust by
altering your VAV supply.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>ALEKA: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]>If the <i>building</i> has fume hood exhaust
over 15,000 cfm, the Baseline system is VAV, and exhaust is turned down to at
least 50% for unoccupied hours. I am modeling the unoccupied turn down
rate the same in the Baseline as in the Proposed models, because how low it can
go at night depends on the type of lab (ie: the project doesn't get more credit
for turning down to 20%). This is from Labs 21, and 90.1 (2004 or 2007)
section 6.5.7.2.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]>A project can claim energy savings for demand
controlled fume hoods during occupied hours if the controls are automatic
(Labs21 has some schedules for guidance in modeling this).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]>Energy recovery is not modeled in the Baseline
(see 90.1-2007 G3.1.2.10 Exception h)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#244061'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#244061'>GERALD:</span> I think as Vikram mentioned, it depends on the
total exhaust (cumulative exhaust of all the fume hoods). If the total exhaust
exceeds 15,000cfm, then the baseline needs to have AT LEAST one of the
following:<br>
<br>
1. VAV hood exhaust till a 50% min turn down over the total CFM. Hence you
could only take advantage of a lower VAV set point on the actual equipment.<br>
2. Make-up air. Separate make-up air with supply temperature very close to room
temperatures.<br>
3. Heat recovery . If the building has both VAV and HR, then you should be able
to take full benefits of heat recovery or vise-versa.<br>
<br>
Hence if your total fume hood exhaust is lower than 15,000 cfm, then you
should be able to take advantage of VAV fume hood exhaust over constant
volume exhaust.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#244061'>PAUL: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#244061'>This is my response for
90.1-2007 (which incorporates addenda to 2004 and Labs21 guidance):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]>If the <i><s>building</s> </i><i><span
style='color:red'>laboratory space [interpreted as system] (per G.3.1.1
exception d)</span></i> has exhaust over <span style='color:red'>5,000</span>
cfm, the Baseline system is VAV, and exhaust is turned down to <s>at least</s>
50% of design for unoccupied hours. <s>I am modeling the unoccupied turn
down rate the same in the Baseline as in the Proposed models, because how low
it can go at night depends on the type of lab (ie: the project doesn't get more
credit for turning down to 20%). This is from Labs 21, and 90.1 (2004 or
2007) section 6.5.7.2.</s> <span style='color:red'>Whether or not your
hoods provide the 50% turndown or if a reduction in general exhaust is also
required will be determined by the type of hood specified and the minimum air
change rate in your lab zones. the exhaust is turned down. In
either case, credit can be taken in the Proposed if it has a turndown lower
than 50%. We have had this approved on projects. However, the LEED
Reviewers have been particular about the minimum outdoor air ventilation
requirement (G3.1.2.5) and insist that the difference between your Proposed and
Baseline airflows (typically 100% OA) be treated as Return Air. This is
not a typical practice in laboratory design for good reason, but there has been
insistence from the Reviewers. This poses “issues” for strategies such as
cooling/ventilation decoupling strategies, dynamic ventilation based on air
quality sensing, and fume hood controls/ECMs (as well as the realities of
actually modeling it accurately). Have others seen instances of this Reviewer
feedback? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]>A project can claim energy savings for demand
controlled fume hoods during occupied hours if the controls are automatic
(Labs21 has some schedules for guidance in modeling this). <span
style='color:red'>We agree with this. Labs21 developed a fume hood
modeling schedule which is now incorporated into the 90.1 User’s Manual.
However, it assumes certain hood parameters that should be adjusted to those of
the hoods on your project. It also assumes perfect sash management based
on the Labs21 occupancy schedules. We take credit by modifying the fume
hood schedule based on industry/client data on % of time people are actually in
front of the hoods and the response time of the sensors/control strategies.
Perfect sash management at night is still considered in our approach.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]>Energy recovery is not modeled in the Baseline
(see 90.1-2007 G3.1.2.10 Exception h). <span style='color:red'>90.1-2007
no longer offers an either or as was the case in 90.1-2004. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span
style='color:windowtext'>Assuming the base case were to be a traditional fume
hood exhaust system which used constant volume fans in order to create the 3000
fpm discharge velocity. If the fume hoods have sash control the there is an
outside air by-pass on the fan header, so down stream VAV and upstream constant
volume exhaust fans. I know these constant volume fans can be staged to
form a 'quasi' variable exhaust. So if this were the base case then one could
apply the list of various innovations on how to apply variable exhaust flow to
the proposed model. </span><span style='color:red'>If lab system had
<5000 cfm of exhaust then you can have constant volume hoods in the
Baseline. If your spaces are not hood driven at any time, then modeling
hoods as constant volume is pointless as you don’t need to model the
hoods. If your hoods do drive the space ventilation and the former two
items aren’t true then they will need to be VAV. Your question really
gets to the matter of exhaust fan modeling if I read it correctly, and the
ability to see savings there due to strategies for reducing zone/system
exhaust. Currently there is no defined Baseline exhaust fan modeling
specified in 90.1. We have submitted many projects with constant exhaust
fan bhp in the Baseline case to simulate variable exhaust with constant
velocity discharge using OA bypass. We have taken credit for fan staging
and variable velocity discharge (based on wind tunnel guidance for the
turndown). The ASHRAE Continuous Maintenance process considered adopting
this as an addendum to 90.1-2007 but as I understand it the direction taken was
to specify some level of fan staging as the Baseline. This is not yet
published to my knowledge.</span><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span
style='color:windowtext'>The ASHRAE 90.1 6.5.7.2 isnt really a solution,
however Aleka you mention Lab 21, have you had any luck in getting this
accepted by the LEED meanies? </span><span style='color:red'>Hopefully my
comments above clarify what we’ve attempted and what’s been accepted.</span><span
style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Perhaps others see it
differently and would like to comment. Good discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width=474 style='width:355.5pt'>
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<td width=167 valign=top style='width:125.25pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Gerald Pde<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 01, 2010 4:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modeling fume hood exhausts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Peter,<br>
I think as Vikram mentioned, it depends on the total exhaust (cumulative
exhaust of all the fume hoods). If the total exhaust exceeds 15,000cfm,
then the baseline needs to have AT LEAST one of the following:<br>
<br>
1. VAV hood exhaust till a 50% min turn down over the total CFM. Hence you
could only take advantage of a lower VAV set point on the actual equipment.<br>
2. Make-up air. Separate make-up air with supply temperature very close to room
temperatures.<br>
3. Heat recovery . If the building has both VAV and HR, then you should be able
to take full benefits of heat recovery or vise-versa.<br>
<br>
Hence if your total fume hood exhaust is lower than 15,000 cfm, then you
should be able to take advantage of VAV fume hood exhaust over constant
volume exhaust.<br>
<br>
Does this make sense?<br>
<br>
Gerald<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
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style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Peter Simmonds
<peter.simmonds@ibece.net><br>
<b>To:</b> Aleka Pappas <APappas@enermodal.com>; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wed, September 1, 2010 3:39:42 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modeling fume hood exhausts</span><span
style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks for all the help. Here is another angle I am coming from.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Assuming the base case were to be a traditional fume hood
exhaust system which used constant volume fans in order to create the 3000 fpm
discharge velocity. If the fume hoods have sash control the there is an outside
air by-pass on the fan header, so down stream VAV and upstream constant volume
exhaust fans. I know these constant volume fans can be staged to form a
'quasi' variable exhaust. So if this were the base case then one could apply
the list of various innovations on how to apply variable exhaust flow to the
proposed model.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The ASHRAE 90.1 6.5.7.2 isnt really a solution, however Aleka
you mention Lab 21, have you had any luck in getting this accepted by the LEED
meanies?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Peter
Simmonds,Ph.D.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:gray'><br>
<b>Senior Associate<br>
</b><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>IBE
Consulting Engineers</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
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<b>14130 Riverside Drive, Suite 201</b></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:gray'>Sherman Oaks, CA 91423 <br>
p: (818) 377-8220 x246 f: (818) 377-8230<br>
<br>
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style='color:gray;text-decoration:none'>www.ibece.com</span></a><br>
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border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Aleka Pappas [mailto:APappas@enermodal.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Modeling fume hood exhausts</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I just spent
a while digging through all the latest docs on modeling labs for a LEED
analysis (90.1-2004, 90.1-2007, addenda, & Labs 21). This is my
interpretation:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'>If the <i>building</i> has
fume hood exhaust over 15,000 cfm, the Baseline system is VAV, and exhaust
is turned down to at least 50% for unoccupied hours. I am modeling
the unoccupied turn down rate the same in the Baseline as in the Proposed
models, because how low it can go at night depends on the type of lab (ie:
the project doesn't get more credit for turning down to 20%). This
is from Labs 21, and 90.1 (2004 or 2007) section 6.5.7.2.<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'>A project can claim energy
savings for demand controlled fume hoods during occupied hours if the
controls are automatic (Labs21 has some schedules for guidance in modeling
this).<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'>Energy recovery is not
modeled in the Baseline (see 90.1-2007 G3.1.2.10 Exception h).<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Let me know if you have a
different interpretation....I don't think all these issues are laid out in
detail for modelers yet.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600'>Aleka
Pappas</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#006600'>Building Energy Engineer</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><pre><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000066'>ENERMODAL ENGINEERING, INC.</span></b><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><i><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000066'>Inspiring energy and resource efficient buildings.</span></i><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><b><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000066'><a
href="http://www.enermodal.com/" target="_blank">www.enermodal.com</a></span></b><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000066'>1325 E. 16th Ave.</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000066'>Denver, CO 80218</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000066'><a
href="mailto:APappas@enermodal.com" target="_blank">APappas@enermodal.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
On 8/31/2010 12:35 PM, varun kulkarni wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I think it also depends on the software you are using to
model a fume hood. Because if exhaust is specified more than the supply
due to the hood, the software may disregard the lower supply and equate
the higher value of exhaust to the supply. I am also trying to model a
VAV exhaust fume hood and facing a lot of problems doing it. So you have to
figure out a way to control you exhaust by altering your VAV supply.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>If you know some other way,
please let me know also :)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Sami, Vikram <<a
href="mailto:Vikram.Sami@perkinswill.com" target="_blank">Vikram.Sami@perkinswill.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I think that depends on the total volume of exhaust. I don't
have it in front of me, but I think if your exhaust is more than a certain
amount you have to have either energy recovery to fifty percent or vav flow.<br>
<br>
Sent from a mobile device<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Peter Simmonds [mailto:<a href="mailto:peter.simmonds@ibece.net"
target="_blank">peter.simmonds@ibece.net</a>]<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 12:09 PM Central Standard Time<br>
To: <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Modeling fume hood exhausts<br>
<br>
Can anyone tell me when modeling a lab system with fume hoods as to whether the
baseline systems are to be modeled as constant volume?<br>
<br>
(subsequent alternatives will have variable volume fume hoods).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Peter Simmonds,Ph.D.<br>
Senior Associate<br>
<br>
IBE Consulting Engineers<br>
14130 Riverside Drive, Suite 201<br>
Sherman Oaks, CA 91423<br>
p: (818) 377-8220 x246 f: (818) 377-8230<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.ibece.com/" target="_blank">www.ibece.com</a> <<a
href="http://www.ibece.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ibece.com/</a>><br>
Ideas for the built environment<br>
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<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><a
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and Best Regards,</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sincerely,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Varun
Kulkarni , M.S. , EIT</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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