All,<br><br>Just a couple of comments. I became frustrated with the glass library data years ago when I could never find a window that met the Oregon Code values or the ASHRAE values. So I use Window vs x. It's quick and easy and you can input data for all your sizes thus you have real output. Size makes a big difference! I have neglected the frames up until lately because it's been harder to get data related to them. When you get into it you find that things like thermal breaks vary wildly in their structures. Who knew? I thought a thermal break was a thermal break, but no, they can be made out of various materials and sometimes don't really "break" the heat path at all. Manufacturers like to use terms like "thermally improved". Just try to find out what that means. Anyway, since so many windows are custom built in the field it's good to get as much glass and frame info as possible so you can accurately model them. Call it one of the final frontiers: a good thermal break can really save energy. I always suggest it as an opportunity because I know most developers will not consider them otherwise. They can cost a lot although how much is debatable.<br>
<br>Last comment, and I apologize in advance Robin, Window is not paid for by the Department of Energy; nothing is. It's paid for by us using our tax dollars. At least they are going for something useful wrt Window.<br>
<br>Carol<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:32 AM, mark dewsbury <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Mark.Dewsbury@utas.edu.au">Mark.Dewsbury@utas.edu.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-AU">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Dear Alex,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I work in the HER validation field , so we
need to know that we are modelling the right fabric matrix (framing factor and
windows included). The software available in Australia only has the NFRC type
table for selection, which is unsuitable for us. The get around the problem we
can modify the data in the software’s scratch file. This is a file the
software creates post data entry before simulation. We open this file and
modify lots of parameters based on ‘as-built’ observations. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Once you start playing at this level, you actually
create as many windows as you wish. You just need & checking with the data
entry. We mainly modify the framing ratios of a suitable NFRC window to match
what is really in the wall. It is laborious, so I do believe that we need a
parametric model within the HER software which can ultimately make the changes
for us. The only other addition would then be a mullions tool to nominate how
many vertical and horizontal mullions. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">We are to discuss this in Australia when
I finish my current windowless project. But I have been advising another
researcher with a windowed project. </span></font></p><div class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Mark Dewsbury<br>
<br>
Centre for Sustainable Architecture with Wood<br>
School
of Architecture<br>
University
of Tasmania<br>
Locked Bag 1324<br>
Launceston 7250<br>
ph: 03 6324 4089<br>
mob: 0417 290 807<br>
fax: 03 6324 4088<br>
</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;">e: <a href="mailto:mark.dewsbury@utas.edu.au" title="blocked::mailto:mark.dewsbury@utas.edu.au" target="_blank">mark.dewsbury@utas.edu.au</a></span></font></p>
</div>
</div><div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";" lang="EN-US">
<hr align="center" width="100%" size="2">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" lang="EN-US">
Alex Krickx [mailto:<a href="mailto:akrickx@seriousmaterials.com" target="_blank">akrickx@seriousmaterials.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 21 July 2010 3:22
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> mark dewsbury;
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Window
performance with frames</div></div></span></font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Hi Mark,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I agree with the point you make, but I
want to expand the conversation a bit. Specifically, I aim to discuss the
difference between how to use NFRC values and how to input values into energy
modeling software.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">The NFRC value should be accurate for a
window of the NFRC standard size. So a standard sized 1200mm x 1500mm fixed
window will have a certain U-factor, SHGC and VT as part of its NFRC rating.
But a different size will certainly have different performance values. I think
NFRC is very useful in comparing Window A to Window B in a standard size, but
you are right: once you’ve selected Window A we need to make sure that we
have the right performance parameters for that sized window.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I’ve been working on some projects
that are aiming to be Passive House certified in which case they DO need to
know how performance varies with size. We’ve worked out some formulas to
calculate the full frame performance (only for U-factor at this point) on a
range of our products. It’s tricky because you need to know the U-factor
of each component (edge of glass against each part of the frame, each part of
the frame, and COG) as well as the areas of each of those components which of
course vary with different sized windows.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I’m not sure what other
manufacturers are doing to be able to provide this, but we have some of our
product lines in a format that we can provide an NFRC-grade value for a
non-NFRC sized window.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">If you want to see the calculations, you
can follow this link: <a href="http://index.seriouswindows.com/passive-house.html" target="_blank">http://index.seriouswindows.com/passive-house.html</a>
and click “Download SeriousWindows for Passive House” at the bottom
of the page or click here: <a href="http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/func-startdown/90/" target="_blank">http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/func-startdown/90/</a>.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">The document describes how the window is
broken into different sections and includes all the necessary info needed to
calculate full frame performance.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">The last thing I’d like to add: It
is probably simpler to upload WINDOW5 data (I know eQUEST can import COG
spectral data), specify your window size in the modeling software and specify
your frame U-factor. Your software should take all that data and calculate what
the full-frame data is pretty accurately.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">If anyone has any questions about this,
feel free to contact me: generating these formulas took quite a bit of time and
I’d be happy to share my learning.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Alex Krickx</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#262f13" face="Calibri" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(38, 47, 19);" lang="EN-US">Alex Krickx</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="gray" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: gray;" lang="EN-US">Building Energy Specialist</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><img src="" alt="email_sig" border="0" width="121" height="42"></span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">1250 Elko Dr</span></font><font color="#1f497d" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">, Sunnyvale, CA 94089</span></font><font color="#1f497d" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">(t) 408.541.8124</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="gray" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: gray;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;" lang="EN-US">Warning:</span></font></i></b><i><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-style: italic;" lang="EN-US"> The information contained in this
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0mm 0mm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" lang="EN-US">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>mark dewsbury<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, July 19, 2010 4:45
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window
performance with frames</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Dear All,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Are we talking about the assessment for
simple regulatory approval or are we talking about what a window really is. We
have found dramatic variations between NFRC values and what actually goes into
a building. I will not go into differences in measured infiltration rates as
that is too random but the window framing factor is fairly parametric. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">The NFRC tables work on a sample window
size (lest say 900mm x 1200mm). This is quite a small window when compared to most
installations but;</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><span>-<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></font></span></span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">For
windows smaller than the sample size the frame to galls factor is much higher, </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><span>-<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></font></span></span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Conversely
for large format windows commonly used in residential & commercial projects
the framing factor is much less. In some test cases we have calculated framing
factors changing from 18% to 8% or even less. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Depending on Glass system and framing
system this can create some interesting changes to thermal simulation results.
One of my colleagues will hopefully publish something on this late 2010 or
early 2011. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Mark Dewsbury<br>
<br>
Centre for Sustainable Architecture with Wood<br>
School of Architecture<br>
University
of Tasmania<br>
Locked Bag 1324<br>
Launceston 7250<br>
ph: 03 6324 4089<br>
mob: 0417 290 807<br>
fax: 03 6324 4088<br>
</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;">e: <a href="mailto:mark.dewsbury@utas.edu.au" title="blocked::mailto:mark.dewsbury@utas.edu.au" target="_blank">mark.dewsbury@utas.edu.au</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";" lang="EN-US">
<hr align="center" width="100%" size="2">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" lang="EN-US">
Alex Krickx [mailto:<a href="mailto:akrickx@seriousmaterials.com" target="_blank">akrickx@seriousmaterials.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 17 July 2010 5:05
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Nick Caton; D. Charlie
Curcija; Andy Hoover; Otto Schwieterman; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window
performance with frames</span></font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Hi Nick,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I think I know the answer to some of
your questions, for some others I’m happy to share my thoughts, and for
the remainder I have no clue.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I have always assumed that for the DOE-2
Glass Library that those files have Window5 report files behind them –
i.e. they’re not just single values for U, SHGC and VT. I could be
mistaken though.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Skipping number 2…</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I believe that Window5 is the same thing
as WINDOW (technically, I think it is called WINDOW5 and there is/soon will be
WINDOW6).</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Lastly – I’ve looked into
some detail at how full frame U-factors are calculated and how they vary by
size. So as a brief tangent, I thought I would look at whether SHGC varies by
size too. I found that if a window had, say 0.5 SHGC COG and the window was 90%
glass, 10% frame (by area) the resulting full frame SHGC was GREATER than
(90%)*(0.5 SHGC). This means to me that the frame has some non-zero SHGC contribution.
Granted, it was small (if I remember correctly on the order of 0.1) but still
– non-zero!!! In my head I assumed that the frame would reflect
additional heat through the window into the space – that may not be
correct, but it made sense with my results. I haven’t looked at VT
that closely but I would assume the same is true – that the frame adds
some small VT to the whole unit.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Alex Krickx</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#262f13" face="Calibri" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(38, 47, 19);" lang="EN-US">Alex Krickx</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="gray" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: gray;" lang="EN-US">Building Energy Specialist</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><img src="" alt="email_sig" border="0" width="121" height="42"></span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">1250 Elko Dr</span></font><font color="#1f497d" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">, Sunnyvale, CA 94089</span></font><font color="#1f497d" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">(t) 408.541.8124</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="gray" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: gray;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;" lang="EN-US">Warning:</span></font></i></b><i><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-style: italic;" lang="EN-US"> The information contained in this
e-mail may be privileged attorney-client communications or attorney work
product and/or proprietary and confidential. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient then you have received it in error and any
review, distribution or copying of this message is prohibited and you are to
notify us immediately by reply e-mail and delete the original message
immediately.</span></font></i><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" lang="EN-US">
Nick Caton [mailto:<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, July 16, 2010 10:27
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> D. Charlie Curcija; Andy
Hoover; Alex Krickx; Otto Schwieterman; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Window
performance with frames</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Mr. Curcija and everyone:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">If I may be so bold as to ask some
“dumb” questions,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><span>-<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></font></span></span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I’m an individual who regularly relies
on the DOE2 Glass library (a large excel file attached to any eQuest
installation) to find window constructions whose NFRC framed U-value, visible
transmittance, and SHGC/SC values best match those prescriptive values given
for actual design models and for 90.1 baseline models. Am I to understand
all of my past models have a “10% to 100% error” with regard to the
modeled behavior of the glazing? Please explain!</span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><span>-<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></font></span></span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">It sounds like the use of Window5 is pretty
popular, and this ability to export a file which can be used by DOE2 has me
intrigued – has NFRC or any other body decided to make representative
report files to match 90.1’s baseline envelope requirements to encourage
this procedure for comparative studies?</span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><span>-<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></font></span></span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Is Window5 the same thing as WINDOW?</span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><span>-<font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></font></span></span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Furthering Otto’s original question, my
reaction to a reviewer requiring “VLT including the frame” would be
to first roll my eyes and then explain the frame has a VLT of zero, and is
modeled distinctly from the glazing which has a VLT of ##%… am I
misunderstanding the request there?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Thanks!</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">~Nick</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><img src="" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" border="0" width="119" height="37"></span></font><b><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT"><span style="font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94); font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US"></span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94); font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94); font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></font></b><b><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Stylus BT" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94); font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US"></span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#cc9900" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);" lang="EN-US">PROJECT ENGINEER</span></font><font color="#cc9900" face="Times New Roman" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);" lang="EN-US">25501 west valley parkway</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);" lang="EN-US">olathe</span></font><font color="#2d4d5e" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);" lang="EN-US"> ks
66061</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);" lang="EN-US">direct 913 344.0036</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);" lang="EN-US">fax 913 345.0617</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><font color="#2d4d5e" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94); font-style: italic;" lang="EN-US">Check out
our new web-site @ </span></font></i><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></font></a></span></font><u><font color="blue" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></u><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" lang="EN-US">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>D. Charlie Curcija<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, July 16, 2010 9:16
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> 'Andy Hoover'; 'Alex Krickx';
'Otto Schwieterman'; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window
performance with frames</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Important thing to remember with windows
is that the real number is the one that account for actual size and that takes
into account angle dependent properties of glazing. In most cases, single
performance indices at standard conditions are used (i.e., U-factor, SHGC, and
VT at normal incidence and standard environmental conditions) in an energy
model of a building, which can produce errors anywhere from 10% to a
100%!! The correct procedure is to either specify correct configuration
and size of the product, with glazing specified layer by layer (possible
in EnergyPlus) or use what is called DOE2 or EnergyPlus reports from WINDOW
program (DOE2 report is used in DOE2 simulation program and E+ report is used
in E+ simulation program). This is the only way to fully account for
changes in size, angular properties of glazing and actual weather conditions.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">NFRC (National Fenestration Rating
Council) has started to provide DOE2 and E+ report files in their new CMAST
certification system, however number of products available is still relatively
small and is limited to commercial projects. EnergyPlus has also
implemented in version 5.0 option to specify standard numbers at standard
conditions (like the ones available from <a href="http://search.nfrc.org/search/searchDefault.aspx" target="_blank">http://search.nfrc.org/search/searchDefault.aspx</a>)
and E+ uses then internal algorithms to provide glazing angular information and
correction for actual conditions. While it is best to model specific
configurations for a window in THERM and WINDOW program (THERM is required to
model frames and edge of glazing), this is not something that average user will
be able to do, so getting whole product information from the NFRC web site and
using E+ option to convert this data to something resembling real performance
is still the best and easiest way to get actual information. For
commercial products <a href="http://cmast.nfrc.org" target="_blank">http://cmast.nfrc.org</a>
provides full information that does not need any simplifications or
corrections.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Our energy simulation tools
DesignBuilder and EFEN use EnergyPlus simulation engine, with the full range of
options mentioned above and also provide hundreds of predefined fenestration
products that can be matched to your actual product.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">D. Charlie Curcija <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Design</span></b>Builder Software <br>
16 Bridge St.
<br>
Millers Falls, MA 01349<br>
<br>
Tel: (413) 256-4647 <br>
Fax: (413) 256-4823 <br>
cell: (413) 575-3487 <br>
email: </span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:curcija@designbuildersoftware.com" title="blocked::mailto:curcija@designbuildersoftware.com" target="_blank"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">curcija@designbuildersoftware.com</span></font></a></span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> <br>
web: </span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.designbuildersoftware.com/" title="blocked::http://www.designbuildersoftware.com/" target="_blank"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">http://www.designbuildersoftware.com</span></font></a></span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> <br>
<b><i><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"> </span></i></b> </span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0mm 0mm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" lang="EN-US">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Andy Hoover<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, July 16, 2010 9:01
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> 'Alex Krickx'; 'Otto
Schwieterman'; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window
performance with frames</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Hey all:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">We do not know Alex at all but
completely support his position that it is the entire assembly/full frame in
use that counts. We are a building envelope consultancy and deal
principally in the built market and see this issue all of the time where the performance
of window, storefront and curtain wall units is dramatically different than
that ‘calculated’ or provided. As a matter of fact, it
is the unfortunate norm. At the end of the day it is about actual in use
performance and that performance versus what was calculated. I will stay
away from installation difference in this one </span></font><font color="#1f497d" face="Wingdings"><span style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">J</span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Anyway, we do agree with and have seen
the truth to his assessment of frame differences. It is only the
performance of the entire assembly, at every level of a structure as a whole, that
counts in the real world. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Thanks and take care,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Andy </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Andy Hoover</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Principal</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">The BEST Consultant, Inc.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Cell: 678-793-1159</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Office: 678-200-7648</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Fax: 678-827-0574</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" lang="EN-US">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Alex Krickx<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, July 14, 2010
4:57 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Otto Schwieterman;
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window
performance with frames</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Hi Otto,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Serious Materials provides full frame
performance data here: <a href="http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/Datasheets/" target="_blank">http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/Datasheets/</a>.
I have also have some of our commercial packages modeled in curtainwall and
storefront framing systems that I can provide upon request.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Firstly let me say that Window5 is a
great tool – I use it often and love it. The only thing I would advise is
that there can be a wide distribution in frame U-factors. The default U-factor
for a thermally broken aluminum (TBA) frame in Window 5 is U-1.0. Using THERM
and Window5 I’ve seen TBA frame U-factors vary from as low as 0.8 to as
high as 1.5. The resultant full-frame U-factor using these 2 differing TBA
frames (and the same glass package) is: 0.29 (R-3.4) for the poorer performing
frame, and 0.22 (R-4.5) for the better frame.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I would say that putting either of those
full frame u-factors in your energy model will yield pretty different results. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I think it’s really important that
we, as simulators and modelers, look at full-frame performance because this is
the system that will be installed in the building. Center-of-Glass data can be
useful comparing two different glass packages, but at the end of the day,
it’s a framed system that will be installed and a framed system that
should be analyzed. My 2˘.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Alex Krickx</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#262f13" face="Calibri" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(38, 47, 19);" lang="EN-US">Alex Krickx</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="gray" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: gray;" lang="EN-US">Building Energy Specialist</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">1250 Elko Dr</span></font><font color="#1f497d" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">, Sunnyvale, CA 94089</span></font><font color="#1f497d" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">(t) 408.541.8124</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="gray" face="Calibri" size="1"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: gray;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" lang="EN-US">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Otto Schwieterman<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, July 14, 2010
1:10 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Bldg-sim] Window
performance with frames</span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US">Does anyone know of a window manufacturer web site that has literature
on its windows including the frame? I am using Trace 700 for EA Credit 1 and
the reviewer asked for manufacturer data sheets for window performance values
(U-value, VLT and SHGC) including the frame. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US">Your help is appreciated,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US">Otto</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
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