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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Mr. Curcija and everyone:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>If I may be so bold as to ask
some “dumb” questions,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>I’m an individual
who regularly relies on the DOE2 Glass library (a large excel file attached to
any eQuest installation) to find window constructions whose NFRC framed U-value,
visible transmittance, and SHGC/SC values best match those prescriptive values given
for actual design models and for 90.1 baseline models. Am I to understand all
of my past models have a “10% to 100% error” with regard to the
modeled behavior of the glazing? Please explain!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>It sounds like the use
of Window5 is pretty popular, and this ability to export a file which can be
used by DOE2 has me intrigued – has NFRC or any other body decided to
make representative report files to match 90.1’s baseline envelope requirements
to encourage this procedure for comparative studies?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>Is Window5 the same
thing as WINDOW?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='color:#1F497D'>Furthering Otto’s
original question, my reaction to a reviewer requiring “VLT including the
frame” would be to first roll my eyes and then explain the frame has a
VLT of zero, and is modeled distinctly from the glazing which has a VLT of ##%…
am I misunderstanding the request there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><img width=119 height=37
id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image002.jpg@01CB24E0.76AAA440"
alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB"></span><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";
color:#2D4D5E'>NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Stylus BT","sans-serif";color:#2D4D5E'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;color:#CC9900'>PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#CC9900'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>25501 west
valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>olathe ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>direct 913
344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>fax 913
345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#2D4D5E'>Check out
our new web-site @ </span></i><span style='color:#1F497D'><a
href="www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'> </span></u><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>D. Charlie
Curcija<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 16, 2010 9:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Andy Hoover'; 'Alex Krickx'; 'Otto Schwieterman';
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Important thing to remember with
windows is that the real number is the one that account for actual size and
that takes into account angle dependent properties of glazing. In most
cases, single performance indices at standard conditions are used (i.e.,
U-factor, SHGC, and VT at normal incidence and standard environmental
conditions) in an energy model of a building, which can produce errors anywhere
from 10% to a 100%!! The correct procedure is to either specify correct
configuration and size of the product, with glazing specified layer by
layer (possible in EnergyPlus) or use what is called DOE2 or EnergyPlus reports
from WINDOW program (DOE2 report is used in DOE2 simulation program and E+
report is used in E+ simulation program). This is the only way to fully
account for changes in size, angular properties of glazing and actual weather
conditions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>NFRC (National Fenestration
Rating Council) has started to provide DOE2 and E+ report files in their new
CMAST certification system, however number of products available is still
relatively small and is limited to commercial projects. EnergyPlus has
also implemented in version 5.0 option to specify standard numbers at standard
conditions (like the ones available from <a
href="http://search.nfrc.org/search/searchDefault.aspx">http://search.nfrc.org/search/searchDefault.aspx</a>)
and E+ uses then internal algorithms to provide glazing angular information and
correction for actual conditions. While it is best to model specific
configurations for a window in THERM and WINDOW program (THERM is required to
model frames and edge of glazing), this is not something that average user will
be able to do, so getting whole product information from the NFRC web site and
using E+ option to convert this data to something resembling real performance
is still the best and easiest way to get actual information. For
commercial products <a href="http://cmast.nfrc.org">http://cmast.nfrc.org</a>
provides full information that does not need any simplifications or
corrections.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Our energy simulation tools
DesignBuilder and EFEN use EnergyPlus simulation engine, with the full range of
options mentioned above and also provide hundreds of predefined fenestration
products that can be matched to your actual product.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>D. Charlie Curcija <br>
<b>Design</b>Builder Software <br>
16 Bridge St. <br>
Millers Falls, MA 01349<br>
<br>
Tel: (413) 256-4647 <br>
Fax: (413) 256-4823 <br>
cell: (413) 575-3487 <br>
email: </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><a
href="mailto:curcija@designbuildersoftware.com"
title="blocked::mailto:curcija@designbuildersoftware.com"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>curcija@designbuildersoftware.com</span></a></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <br>
web: </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><a
href="http://www.designbuildersoftware.com/"
title="blocked::http://www.designbuildersoftware.com/"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://www.designbuildersoftware.com</span></a></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <br>
<b><i> </i></b> </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy Hoover<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 16, 2010 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Alex Krickx'; 'Otto Schwieterman'; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hey all:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>We do not know Alex at all but
completely support his position that it is the entire assembly/full frame in
use that counts. We are a building envelope consultancy and deal
principally in the built market and see this issue all of the time where the
performance of window, storefront and curtain wall units is dramatically
different than that ‘calculated’ or provided. As a
matter of fact, it is the unfortunate norm. At the end of the day it is
about actual in use performance and that performance versus what was
calculated. I will stay away from installation difference in this one </span><span
style='font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='color:#1F497D'>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Anyway, we do agree with and
have seen the truth to his assessment of frame differences. It is only
the performance of the entire assembly, at every level of a structure as a
whole, that counts in the real world. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks and take care,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Andy <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Andy Hoover<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Principal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The BEST Consultant, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Cell: 678-793-1159<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Office: 678-200-7648<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Fax: 678-827-0574<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Email:
andyhoover@thebestconsultant.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Web: www.thebestconsultant.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
font-variant:small-caps;color:#1F497D'>LEGAL DISCLAIMER<br>
The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or entity to
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Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking action in
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</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alex Krickx<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Otto Schwieterman; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hi Otto,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Serious Materials provides full
frame performance data here: <a
href="http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/Datasheets/">http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/Datasheets/</a>.
I have also have some of our commercial packages modeled in curtainwall and
storefront framing systems that I can provide upon request.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Firstly let me say that Window5
is a great tool – I use it often and love it. The only thing I would
advise is that there can be a wide distribution in frame U-factors. The default
U-factor for a thermally broken aluminum (TBA) frame in Window 5 is U-1.0.
Using THERM and Window5 I’ve seen TBA frame U-factors vary from as low as
0.8 to as high as 1.5. The resultant full-frame U-factor using these 2
differing TBA frames (and the same glass package) is: 0.29 (R-3.4) for the
poorer performing frame, and 0.22 (R-4.5) for the better frame.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I would say that putting either
of those full frame u-factors in your energy model will yield pretty different
results. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I think it’s really
important that we, as simulators and modelers, look at full-frame performance
because this is the system that will be installed in the building.
Center-of-Glass data can be useful comparing two different glass packages, but
at the end of the day, it’s a framed system that will be installed and a
framed system that should be analyzed. My 2¢.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Alex Krickx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#262F13'>Alex Krickx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:gray'>Building Energy
Specialist<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#1F497D'><img border=0
width=121 height=42 id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:image003.jpg@01CB24E0.76AAA440" alt="email_sig"></span><span
style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'>1250 Elko Dr,
Sunnyvale, CA 94089<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'>(t) 408.541.8124<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:gray'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Warning:</span></i></b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> The information contained
in this e-mail may be privileged attorney-client communications or attorney
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to notify us immediately by reply e-mail and delete the original message
immediately.</span></i><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Otto Schwieterman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Does anyone know of a window manufacturer web site that has
literature on its windows including the frame? I am using Trace 700 for EA
Credit 1 and the reviewer asked for manufacturer data sheets for window
performance values (U-value, VLT and SHGC) including the frame. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Your help is appreciated,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Otto<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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