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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Good morning Everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I agree with both Andy and Alex
that the installed assembly is what must be modeled because the assembly values
can differ significantly from the center of glass values. However, more often
than not, the fenestration is designed using glazing from one manufacturer which
is set in frames by a different manufacturer. This creates difficulties in
determining the assembly value, and modelers have a very hard time accessing
testing data for a particular combination of glazing and frame. Windows5 is often
the only tool a modeler has to approximate the assembly values needed for the
models.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>When using Windows5, we never
use the default frame values. We go to the frame manufacturer to get the frame
parameters including the U-value and create a custom frame for that project in
Windows5. The same goes for the glazing assembly when the data is not already
in the Windows5 database. By using the actual manufacturers' frame and glazing
data, Windows5 can get close to the installed values.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Keep in mind that energy models can
never exactly match reality. And, there comes a point in energy modeling when
we have to say "close enough". In any model, that point is reached
when the amount of time needed to get a fractional improvement in accuracy
becomes burdensome with very little gained in accuracy. Using Windows5 as
outlined above can help to minimize the margin of error with a reasonable
amount of effort. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>For EAc1 submissions, you can submit
the glazing data sheet which shows the center of glass values, the data sheet
(or other form of response) from the frame manufacturer, and a copy of the Windows5
report (or a snapshot of the inputs/outputs screen) showing the entire assembly
calculated values. The reviewer will accept this approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I hope this clarifies things
from the energy modeling and LEED perspectives. Have a nice day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#76923C'>Sheila Sagerer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#76923C'>Energy Engineer, EIT, LEED AP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#76923C'>Energy Opportunities, Inc, a 7group company<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#76923C'>Phone: 717-880-9069<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#76923C'>www.sevengroup.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy Hoover<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 16, 2010 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Alex Krickx'; 'Otto Schwieterman'; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hey all:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>We do not know Alex at all but
completely support his position that it is the entire assembly/full frame in
use that counts. We are a building envelope consultancy and deal
principally in the built market and see this issue all of the time where the
performance of window, storefront and curtain wall units is dramatically
different than that ‘calculated’ or provided. As a
matter of fact, it is the unfortunate norm. At the end of the day it is
about actual in use performance and that performance versus what was
calculated. I will stay away from installation difference in this one </span><span
style='font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='color:#1F497D'>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Anyway, we do agree with and
have seen the truth to his assessment of frame differences. It is only
the performance of the entire assembly, at every level of a structure as a
whole, that counts in the real world. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Thanks and take care,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Andy <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Andy Hoover<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Principal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>The BEST Consultant, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Cell: 678-793-1159<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Office: 678-200-7648<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Fax: 678-827-0574<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Email: andyhoover@thebestconsultant.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Web: www.thebestconsultant.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
font-variant:small-caps;color:#1F497D'>LEGAL DISCLAIMER<br>
The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or entity to
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Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking action in
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alex Krickx<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Otto Schwieterman; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hi Otto,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Serious Materials provides full
frame performance data here: <a
href="http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/Datasheets/">http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/Datasheets/</a>.
I have also have some of our commercial packages modeled in curtainwall and
storefront framing systems that I can provide upon request.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Firstly let me say that Window5
is a great tool – I use it often and love it. The only thing I would
advise is that there can be a wide distribution in frame U-factors. The default
U-factor for a thermally broken aluminum (TBA) frame in Window 5 is U-1.0.
Using THERM and Window5 I’ve seen TBA frame U-factors vary from as low as
0.8 to as high as 1.5. The resultant full-frame U-factor using these 2
differing TBA frames (and the same glass package) is: 0.29 (R-3.4) for the
poorer performing frame, and 0.22 (R-4.5) for the better frame.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I would say that putting either
of those full frame u-factors in your energy model will yield pretty different
results. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I think it’s really
important that we, as simulators and modelers, look at full-frame performance
because this is the system that will be installed in the building. Center-of-Glass
data can be useful comparing two different glass packages, but at the end of
the day, it’s a framed system that will be installed and a framed system
that should be analyzed. My 2˘.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Alex Krickx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#262F13'>Alex Krickx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:gray'>Building Energy
Specialist<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#1F497D'><img border=0
width=121 height=42 id="_x0000_i1029" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CB24C7.EFADD5B0"
alt="email_sig"></span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'>1250 Elko Dr,
Sunnyvale, CA 94089<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D'>(t) 408.541.8124<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:gray'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Warning:</span></i></b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> The information contained
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Otto
Schwieterman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Does anyone know of a window manufacturer web site that has
literature on its windows including the frame? I am using Trace 700 for EA
Credit 1 and the reviewer asked for manufacturer data sheets for window
performance values (U-value, VLT and SHGC) including the frame. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Your help is appreciated,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Otto<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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