I understand that ventilation is modeled separately as DOAS, or dummy
outdoor air system for certain hybrid strategies, but would anyone have
a good idea of why dummy zones are modeled, from a building physics
perspective? Thank you.<br>
<br>
<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 3/15/10, <b class="gmail_sendername">Tim Reynolds</b> <<a href="mailto:tim.reynolds@cbengineers.com">tim.reynolds@cbengineers.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Gavin is correct that modeling VRV systems
as heat pumps will not demonstrate efficiencies related to part load
operation. Additionally, efficiencies related to heat reclaim during periods
of the year when applicable will not be captured in the model. Energy Pro, by
Energysoft, is the only software I am aware of that has the appropriate algorithms
programmed to provide accurate simulations. Energy Pro is a front end software
package for DOE-2 simulation. We have used it on several occasions to
demonstrate anticipated energy savings.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="#0047b8" face="Calibri" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(0, 71, 184); font-weight: bold;">TIM
REYNOLDS, P.E., LEED AP</span></font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#0047b8" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(0, 71, 184);">Associate Principal</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#0047b8" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(0, 71, 184);">600 108th Ave NE Suite 600</span></font><font color="#0047b8" face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(0, 71, 184);"> | Bellevue,
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<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Gavin Gui<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, March 15, 2010 6:54
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Larry Degelman; Shubhra
Kothari; reniel barroso<div><span class="e" id="q_127622a060ca7e62_1"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] VRV System
Equipment Efficiency</span></div></span></font></p>
</div><div><span class="e" id="q_127622a060ca7e62_3">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I agree with Larry. There is no exact system specified in
the ASHRAE 90.1 that matches the VRV system. We used to model the VRV system
using the efficiencies in Table 6.8.1B, however note that these efficiencies
are typically for full load operations, hence it will not capture the advantage
of the part load capability of the VRV systems. I.e. to say, the savings
calculated as such will be typically conservative.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Also note that VRV systems are generally waived from the DOE
test procedure applicable to commercial package air-cooled central air
conditioners and heat pumps (2 systems that I know of are the Mitsubishi
City-Multi and Sanyo VRV-III systems) although they have to comply with the
alternate testing procedure. So just take note of the system efficiencies used
for the modeling.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;">-------------------------------------------------</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Gavin Gui</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Project Engineer</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">ERS, Inc.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;">120 Water
Street, Ste. 350</span></font><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;">North Andover</span></font><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;">, MA 01845</span></font><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;"></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Ph: 978-521-2550, x 236</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Fax: 978-521-4588</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><a href="mailto:jrogers@ers-inc.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ggui@ers-inc.com</a> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><a href="http://www.ers-inc.com/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.ers-inc.com</a> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;">-------------------------------------------------</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Larry Degelman<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, March 15, 2010 9:24
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Shubhra Kothari; reniel
barroso<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Bldg-sim] VRV System
Equipment Efficiency</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Here's another opinion (non-authoritative): I believe
the VRV efficiency requirements would match best with the "air cooled,
cooling and heating modes" requirements in Table 6.8.1B (for heat
pumps). In the ECB method, this would most likely be system 8,
Packaged terminal heat pumps. I agree that the ventilation should be
modeled separately as a DOAS.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">LOD</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================<br>
Larry O. Degelman, P.E.<br>
Professor Emeritus of Architecture<br>
Texas A&M University<br>
===========================</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: whitesmoke none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial;"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> <a href="mailto:shubhrakothari@gmail.com" title="mailto:shubhrakothari@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Shubhra
Kothari</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: whitesmoke none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial;"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Monday,
March 15, 2010 12:32 AM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: whitesmoke none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial;"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">To:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> <a href="mailto:renielbarroso@yahoo.com" title="mailto:renielbarroso@yahoo.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">reniel
barroso</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: whitesmoke none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial;"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" title="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org
CTRL + Click to follow link" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: whitesmoke none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial;"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Re:
[Bldg-sim] VRV System Equipment Efficiency</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Well, there seems to be no ARI standard for testing VRV yet. So, you
won't find it in 90.1. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The closest you can get is packaged single zone (match cooling
capacity) i believe but you'll have to figure out a way of modelling the
fresh air side- as DOAS or others. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thanks<br>
Shubhra Kothari</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:26 AM, reniel barroso <<a href="mailto:renielbarroso@yahoo.com" title="mailto:renielbarroso@yahoo.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">renielbarroso@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Hi to all!</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Where can we find the Minimum Requirement System Efficiency
of a VRV System in ASHRAE 90.1?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Which of those systems mentioned in the ASHRAE 90.1 can we
use to compare such equipment?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Thanks</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Reniel</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><a href="http://sg.rd.yahoo.com/aa/mail/domainchoice/mail/signature/*http:/mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Get your preferred Email name! </a><br>
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