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JRR wrote:<br>
<br>
How soon will Energy Plus software support .... PURCHASED SNOW ???<br>
It's great insulation !!! and it changes the albedo of the roof....
You could even<br>
capture rain / snow melt for re-use.... and you could even Snow every
night and<br>
melt it with the Sun to be caught the next day... avoiding peaking
charges.....<br>
<br>
Enough viewing into my bag of patent tricks for this evening.........<br>
If you are intrigued by these suggestions you have my email above.<br>
<br>
John R Ross III PE<br>
<br>
<br>
Nick Caton wrote:
<blockquote
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks
for the response Drury!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So
EnergyPlus will essentially adjust the reflectivity of a roof
surface hourly based on the albedo TMY data – that’s promising! Can
we affect the modeled behavior to account for means of preventing
accumulation,
such as snow-melt cable or roof geometries? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Also,
can EnergyPlus (and/or, again, any other energy modeling
software/engine) take account for the variable insulative effects of
snow
incident on the roof surface? I realize accurately/realistically
modeling
this behavior could be tricky/impossible with the removal of snow depth
information in TMY3 from TMY2 (from: </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.doe2.com/Download/Weather/TMY3/Users_Manual_for_TMY3_Data_Sets.pdf"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 204);">http://www.doe2.com/Download/Weather/TMY3/Users_Manual_for_TMY3_Data_Sets.pdf</span></a><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m
bringing up and pressing this point because I think we
as community of energy modelers might want to begin modeling the
thermal effects
of hourly roof snow cover (if we aren’t already), both as a means of
influencing
building design for energy-conscious decision making and as a means of
more
accurately modeling real-life thermal behavior. I did some quick fact
checking – snow has a fairly significant insulative property
(approximately R-1 per inch), and I am concerned that any energy
modeling performed
for buildings in northerly climates might be significantly off-base
without
accounting for the realities of snow-cover on buildings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">PS:
I had to read up on the term albedo myself. Recommended
reading for others at: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">PPS:
It appears snow cover in energy modeling is a pretty deep
topic in other circles… I found further recommended reading
(powerpoint) for
those interested at: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nws.noaa.gov%2Fiao%2FInternationalHydrologyCourseCD1%2F1031%2Fhfcourse_snow.ppt&ei=SvEXS5aYLoL0ManeyN8C&usg=AFQjCNEoDwnXD8CynrrptTs5TPgYJ8kbHw&sig2=yXdMijCKnJOu8J-gKEGsxg">http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nws.noaa.gov%2Fiao%2FInternationalHydrologyCourseCD1%2F1031%2Fhfcourse_snow.ppt&ei=SvEXS5aYLoL0ManeyN8C&usg=AFQjCNEoDwnXD8CynrrptTs5TPgYJ8kbHw&sig2=yXdMijCKnJOu8J-gKEGsxg</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img
id="_x0000_i1028" src="cid:part1.00060200.08010301@cox.net"
alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" border="0" height="37" width="119"></span><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK
CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span
style="font-family: "Stylus BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT
ENGINEER</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501
west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct
913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax
913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Check
out our new web-site @ </span></i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: blue;">
</span></u><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Crawley,
Drury
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Drury.Crawley@ee.doe.gov">mailto:Drury.Crawley@ee.doe.gov</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Caton; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:muehleisen@iit.edu">muehleisen@iit.edu</a>; Christopher Schaffner<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Rooftop Snow Cover???<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: blue;">Yes,
EnergyPlus uses the albedo in the TMY3 or snow cover in other
files to adjust the diffuse radiation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick
Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:muehleisen@iit.edu">muehleisen@iit.edu</a>; Christopher Schaffner<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Rooftop Snow Cover???</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m
starting a new “thread” as this is a
definite tangent from the emissivity discussion of the past few days.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A
question occurred to me on reading Ralph / Chris’s
comments below… does <u>ANY</u> energy modeling program/engine today
use
the snow cover data present in TMY2 files? There’s obvious
implications for things like roof surface thermal behavior and hourly
photovoltaic array performance when you consider the reality of
significant
snow cover presence through the day…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Of
note… I’m no expert, but for others’
reference I found a nice resource this afternoon clarifying the
what/why/how of
TMY files here: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/pubs/tmy2/">http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/pubs/tmy2/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img
id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:part1.00060200.08010301@cox.net"
alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" border="0" height="37" width="119"></span><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK
CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span
style="font-family: "Stylus BT","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT
ENGINEER</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501
west valley parkway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe
ks 66061<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct
913 344.0036<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax
913 345.0617<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Check
out our new web-site @ </span></i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="www.smithboucher.com"
title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: blue;">
</span></u><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ralph
Muehleisen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 02, 2009 10:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Christopher Schaffner<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Why should roofs have high emissivity?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">True indeed.<br>
<br>
Except when your roofs are not covered with snow.<br>
<br>
Here in Chicago, at least the past few years, snow has come in bigger
chunks with more warmi and cold periods in between. And rooftop snow
has
been melting during the warm periods so rooftops have been bare for
more
of the winter.<br>
<br>
It would be an interesting study (maybe I can find an undergrad or
interested
masters student) to actually look at a typical flat roof small
commercial
building and see if the increased summer efficiency of cooling
equipment from a
cool roof offsets the increased winter heating load.<br>
<br>
Ralph<br>
<br clear="all">
Ralph Muehleisen, Ph.D., P.E., LEED AP, FASA<br>
Assistant Professor and Director of the Miller Acoustics Lab<br>
Civil, Architectural and Environmental Engineering<br>
Illinois Institute of Technology<br>
Chicago, IL 60616<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:muehleisen@iit.edu">muehleisen@iit.edu</a><br>
tel: 312-567-3545 fax:312-567-3519<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Christopher
Schaffner <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chris@greenengineer.com">chris@greenengineer.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Of
course, if your roof is well insulated, it will be covered with snow. I
doubt
very much that your “warm” roof will really help much. Go with the
cool roof. <br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Chris Schaffner, PE, LEED AP, LEED Faculty™<br>
Founder and Principal<br>
<br>
The Green Engineer, LLP<br>
Sustainable Design Consulting<br>
50 Beharrell Street<br>
Concord, MA 01742<br>
T: 978.369.8978<br>
M:978.844.1464<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://chris@greenengineer.com"
target="_blank">chris@greenengineer.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.greenengineer.com"
target="_blank">www.greenengineer.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/2/09 12:26 AM, "Ralph Muehleisen" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://muehleisen@gmail.com" target="_blank">muehleisen@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Chris
makes a good point to consider with cool roofs.<br>
<br>
A cool roof will indeed reduce solar heat gain to the roof which
reduces its
temp (good in summer) and reduces cooling requirements in summer but
will
increase heating requirements in the winter.<br>
<br>
Until someone develops a material where the emissivity changes with
temperature
(and not just wavelength) a cool roof that is good in summer will be
bad in
winter.<br>
<br>
So, in colder climates, a cool roof can indeed increase the overall
energy use
of a building.<br>
<br>
Even so, some northern cities like Chicago, mandate cool roofs in
building
code. Why? Because the cool roof will reduce the urban heat island
effect where the city has increased temperatures compared to the
surrounding
areas. <br>
<br>
The thought is that the overall benefits of the reduction in urban
heat
island effect in summer is more important than the increased energy use
that
comes from increased winter cooling load.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ralph<br>
<br>
Ralph Muehleisen, Ph.D., P.E., LEED AP, FASA<br>
Assistant Professor and Director of the Miller Acoustics Lab<br>
Civil, Architectural and Environmental Engineering<br>
Illinois Institute of Technology<br>
Chicago, IL 60616<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://muehleisen@iit.edu"
target="_blank">muehleisen@iit.edu</a><br>
tel: 312-567-3545 fax:312-567-3519<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Chris Jones <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://cj@cr-jay.ca" target="_blank">cj@cr-jay.ca</a>>
wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">In some
cases it may be counter productive
to use a high emissivity roof. I have worked on uncooled warehouses
where
the team used an approved roofing product to get that point but the
heating
energy increased enough to lower the savings enough to lose an EAc1
point. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Chris Jones<br>
14 Oneida Avenue<br>
Toronto, ON M5J 2E3.<br>
Tel. 416-203-7465<br>
Fax. 416-946-1005<br>
<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<pre wrap="">
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