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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'>This is a case of where LEED, IMHO, should supersede 90.1. I’m
very surprised, and quite frankly disappointed, about Nathan’s comments
that the USGBC has accepted 30% over-ventilation in the baseline building.
The intent of LEED, among other things, is to promote low-energy building
design. If a designer chooses to over-ventilate a building by 30% over
what is required by ASHRAE in order to achieve better indoor air quality, the occupants
are better off, the environment is not. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'>The bottom-line is that the baseline building “could”
have been ventilated at ASHRAE rates, and the proposed design should be penalized
for not complying with accepted practice. It’s no different than if
the proposed chiller had a lower COP compared to 90.1 baseline. 90.1 and ASHRAE
define currently accepted practice and the proposed design should be judged
against the standard, not against itself. It’s just that in this
case there is a side-benefit of using more energy and 90.1 stipulates using the
same ventilation rates, which muddies the issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'>I think the example of the hospital is a red herring, since hospitals
would not be designed to ASHRAE 90.1, rather more stringent ventilation codes
which would be applied to both the reference and proposed buildings. The
result is compliance-neutral. Choosing to ventilate beyond governing
standards, should be considered bad design practice in terms of energy, even
though it’s considered good design practice for other reasons. We can’t
have our cake and eat it too!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'>My CDN$0.02<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Luka Matutinovic, </span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>B.A.Sc., LEED<sup>®</sup> AP</span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Green Building Consultant</span></i><i><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br>
</span></i><i><span style='font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'> </span></i><i><span style='font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><br>
</span></i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>T. 416.644.0649</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman","serif";color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>F. 416.487.9766 <br>
Toll Free 1.888.425.7255<br>
www.halsall.com <br>
</span><span style='font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:blue'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>HALSALL ASSOCIATES LTD. <br>
</span></b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Toronto Richmond Hill Ottawa Sudbury <br>
Burlington Calgary Vancouver Dubai <br>
</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
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</span><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:blue'>‘50 Best Workplaces in Canada’ </span></b><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:blue'><br>
</span></b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:blue'>2009 Globe and Mail</span></i><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:blue'><br>
</span></i><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span><b><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black'> </span></b><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:green'>Please
consider the environment before printing this e-mail</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Univers","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David S
Eldridge<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Quick answer:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>90.1 does not care if you are
pursuing EQC2, use the same OA quantities in baseline and proposed for EAC1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Long answer:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>These are separate credits –
the modeling takes place based on the proposed design in comparison to a
baseline that is only restricted by 90.1. The OA requirement should be
the same in both models subject to any DCV or exceptional calcs or
technologies. This is not affected by other LEED credits. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>The credit for increased
ventilation takes place “before” modeling starts. This is
besides the many cases for laboratories or hospitals where the local code
ventilation requirements are much greater than ASHRAE 62.1 already – the
proposed design is in effect already taking the EAC1 penalty but earning the
credit for increased ventilation under the best practice design. You
wouldn’t relax the baseline ventilation to less than 30% in these cases!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I’m sure there are some
proposed buildings out there that condition OA very effectively, and may gain
EAC1 gross energy cost savings by having increased ventilation, but even where
that effect occurs there is the question of percentage savings applying
to a larger energy consumption and cost.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Overall if you gain EAC1 points by
pursuing increased ventilation, I think you have worked well within the system
– good for you in designing a system to condition outside air so
effectively. For many projects (other than labs or hospitals which may
have to use that quantity of OA anyway) I would expect EQC2 could be trading
for an EAC1 credit, so you’ll have to prioritize. Both are rewarded
from USGBC, but EAC1 is also rewarded in lower utility bills.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>http://www.grummanbutkus.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Vikram Sami<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 19, 2009 4:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nathan Miller; Rimes, Christie; Steven Rutter;
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#0000B4'>I always assumed that if you
went to 30% extra, you kept the baseline at 100%, and the designed building at
130%, but after reading this, it does seem to make sense that you would
increase both occurrences. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#0000B4'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#0000B4'>Can anyone from the EA Tag chime
in?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#0000B4'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>Vikram Sami,</span></b><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#0000B4'> </span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>LEED AP</span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#0000B4'> <br>
</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>Direct
Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#0000B4'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:maroon'>L</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:maroon'>ORD</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:maroon'>, A</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:maroon'>ECK</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:maroon'> & S</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:maroon'>ARGENT</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:maroon'> A</span></b><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:maroon'>RCHITECTURE</span></b><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#0000B4'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#0000B4'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathan
Miller<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 19, 2009 4:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Rimes, Christie'; 'Steven Rutter'; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I disagree, I believe the models
should be same-same on ventilation rates. See section 90.1 (2004) Section
G3.1.2.5. It states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>“Minimum outdoor air
ventilation rates should be the same for the proposed and baseline building
designs.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>In my projects (including those
that include 30% additional outside air), I have always used the same outdoor
air flow rates, unless I was taking credit for demand control ventilation in the
proposed case (see the exception allowed in that same ASHRAE section). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Nathan Miller</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>Senior Energy Engineer/Mechanical Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>direct: 206.788.4577<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>fax: 206.285.7111 </span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rimes, Christie<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steven Rutter; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>In my experience you do
not increase the baseline energy model as you are being awarded (gaining that
point) when you achieve the ventilation credit. There are a few similar
situations in LEED where by achieving one credit will prevent you from
achieving another but this happens to everyone so it works out to be somewhat fair.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><img width=591 height=170
id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image001.png@01CA69BB.B0CD8420"
alt="Christie Rimes, Building Simulation Analyst WSP Flack + Kurtz 405 Howard Street, Suite 500 San Francisco, CA 94105 Direct: 415.402.2727 Main Tel: 415.398.3833 Fax: 415.433.5311 website: http://www.wspfk.com vCard: http://vcards.wspfk.com/vcardloader.php?filename=flackkurtz-christie-rimes-wspfk-com-1255981339.vcf image: "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steven
Rutter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>There is a credit in LEED (EQc2.0) that involves increasing
the required ventilation rate by 30%. In trying to achieve this credit,
the amount of energy would have to increase to condition that additional 30%
OSA. Does anyone know if you are supposed to increase the baseline energy
model’s ventilation rate so it has the same ventilation rate as the
proposed building? Thank you in advance for your help.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:gray'>Steven Rutter, LEED</span></b><b><sup><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:gray'>®</span></sup></b><b><sup><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:gray'> </span></sup></b><b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:gray'>AP, EIT</span><o:p></o:p></b></p>
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id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image002.jpg@01CA69BB.B0CD8420"
alt="cid:665444518@16012009-36B3"><br>
<b><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:gray'>3850 Happy
Lane|Sacramento, CA 95827<br>
O:916-368-0336|F:916-368-0337|C:916-717-7484</span></b><span style='font-family:
"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'>Please
consider the environment before printing this email.</span><span
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