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<DIV>Blowing cellulose into uninsulated walls in Vermont also achieves "significant savings." That doesn't mean uninsulated walls should be the baseline for new construction in Vermont in 2010.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Contentiously yours,</DIV>
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<DIV>Fred Porter</DIV>
<DIV>AEC</DIV>
<DIV><BR>>>> Erik Dyrr <erik.dyrr@gmail.com> 11/13/2009 4:05 PM >>><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I don't know what section of 90.1 requires garage ventilation control either. Nathen's assumption that CO controlled garage ventilation fans rarely run is correct. We did a fair amount of M&V for a utility that rebated CO control retrofits. Significant savings were achieved. Most systems ran 24/7 and CO systems rarely operated.</DIV>
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<DIV>I think if you clearly make the case for the baseline and take a conservative estimate of the proposed, it will get accepted. I was preparing to submit a project in this manner when it went bankrupt and came to a halt!<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Nathan Miller <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com">nathanm@rushingco.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">I know this is a contentious issue on bldg-sim regarding whether this should be a allowable measure or not. </SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">I can tell you that on a recent office building project (LEED-NC v2.2) we submitted for energy savings from garage CO sensors. The only comment we got from the reviewer was that “ASHRAE mandates some sort of timed control or CO control as part of the mandatory measures,” so we couldn’t compare against a 24/7 constant volume system. I wish they had quoted a specific section of 90.1 for clarity. </SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">We switched the baseline system to be off for ~6 hours during the night (not in agreement with the IMC requirement for continuous air movement), and they accepted our energy savings.</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Our proposed case simply had the fans on a VFD and we created a custom schedule, which we presented to the reviewer, to reflect that the fans typically were at their lowest setting, and only ramped up for peak commuting hours (small peaks for morning and lunch, big peak at end of the day when all the cold engines start up and really put out the CO). </SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">It is unclear to me if you are modeling a residential garage, where there may genuinely be 24/7 use, if you get to compare to a 24/7 constant volume system. </SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Nathan Miller</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Senior Energy Engineer/Mechanical Engineer</SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">direct: 206.788.4577</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank>bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A> [mailto:<A href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank>bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>James Hansen<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:09 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target=_blank>bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> [Bldg-sim] GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of garage fans?</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal>Does anyone know if the GBCI reviewers are currently accepting ECMs based off of garage carbon monoxide sensors to index garage fans? Or if this can actually be included in the model with appropriate explanation?</P>
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<P class=MsoNormal>IMC requires constant ventilation for enclosed garages, but allows CO-based systems to activate the fans. This equates to a substantial energy savings since most systems like this only operate a few hours in the morning, evening, and at lunch (other than the minimum 0.05 cfm / sq ft continuous ventilation required by the IMC).</P>
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<P class=MsoNormal>If we explain the system, and explain our assumptions for the use schedules that dictate the proposed building fan schedules for the garage, is this acceptable?</P>
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<P class=MsoNormal>Do they require any backup support/studies for exactly how often the CO levels will rise above acceptable limits, or is it sufficient to make a conservative assumption that the garage fans will operate from 7-9am, 11-1pm, and 4-6pm at full load? In my engineering experience, CO-based systems rarely run, and the circulation fans throughout the garage (which approximate the continuous 0.05 cfm / sq ft requirements of the IMC CO-based systems) are what really prevent isolated CO buildup.</P>
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<P class=MsoNormal>Thanks in advance,</P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="COLOR: teal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">GHT Limited<BR></SPAN></B><B><SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black">James Hansen</SPAN></SPAN></B><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">, PE, LEED AP</SPAN></B></P>
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