Ok, so here's a question - what happens when you have a space that is almost NEVER occupied, but has a cfm/sf requirement - like a storage room with a requirement of 0.12 cfm/sf. This is a pretty high outdoor airflow, especially if you're just storing old files.<br>
<br>So do you need this ventilation rate only when the building is occupied, only when the space is occupied, or all the time?<br><br>If you only need the ventilation when the space is occupied, and it is almost never occupied, why install the ventilation in the first place?<br>
<br><br>--<br>Karen<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Brahme, Rohini UTRC <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:BrahmeR@utrc.utc.com">BrahmeR@utrc.utc.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 51, 0);">Thanks Nick. The reason I had the question was because I think OA/sqft
technically should not be dependent on occupancy. If that was the case, it
would suffice to just increase the OA/sqft and have only one number to take
care of. What I am not sure of is whether OA/sqft is used only during the typical
occupied hours irrespective of whether it is actually occupied or not or is it
used throughtout the day/weekend/vacation etc. What do the hvac designers
specify for the control of OA?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 51, 0);">-rohini</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 51, 0);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Nick Caton
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ncaton@smithboucher.com" target="_blank">ncaton@smithboucher.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brahme, Rohini UTRC; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 62.1 unoccupied space minimum
outdoorairsupply</span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">I havn’t read the standard in detail, but isn’t
there a requirement of some OA/sqft in addition to OA/person. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You are correct. Refer to the equation of Section 6.2.2.1
as I referenced below.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">Let’s assume that an office is assumed normally occupied
from 8 am to 6 pm - Then during unoccupied hours (6.01 pm to 7.59 am) can
the OA be zero or should it be OA per sqft?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It sounds like you’re asking the same question I just
answered, so I may not be understanding completely… By Section 5.4
I do not believe an unoccupied space is required to have any OA supplied.
The equation in 6.2.2.1 does include a component “per square foot,”
but that equation is for determining the design minimum OA rate.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">More tricky, let’s say we have a occupancy sensor and know
that the office is unoccupied from 12.00 pm to 3 pm (during the regular office
times). What is the OA at this time – 0 or OA/sqft?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Applying the same logic and the same section, 5.4, if there are
controls that automatically determine a space is occupied and turn the
associated system on to provide the required OA, then there’s no reason
those systems aren’t allowed to turn off while unoccupied. Short
answer for your example: 0.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’ll point out, I’m merely an E.I.T. (with my head
in the books) sharing my interpretations, so it may be worth holding out for a
second opinion =).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img src="cid:image001.jpg@01CA6399.2C0FCEA0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" height="37"></span><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Check out our new web-site @ </span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Brahme,
Rohini UTRC<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 62.1 unoccupied space minimum
outdoorairsupply</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">Since we are on this topic, I had a question on definition of
occupancy.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">I havn’t read the standard in detail, but isn’t
there a requirement of some OA/sqft in addition to OA/person. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">Let’s assume that an office is assumed normally occupied
from 8 am to 6 pm - Then during unoccupied hours (6.01 pm to 7.59 am) can
the OA be zero or should it be OA per sqft?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">More tricky, let’s say we have a occupancy sensor and know
that the office is unoccupied from 12.00 pm to 3 pm (during the regular office
times). What is the OA at this time – 0 or OA/sqft?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">Thanks</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">-rohini</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guin, Michael; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 62.1 unoccupied space minimum
outdoorairsupply</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">No.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Refer to Section 5.4: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">“Mechanical ventilation
systems shall include controls, manual or automatic, that enable the fan system
to operate whenever <u>the spaces served are occupied</u>. The system
shall be designed to maintain the minimum outdoor airflow as required by
Section 6 <u>under any load condition</u>.” </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In summary, you must provided the minimum ventilation rate as
prescribed in Chapter 6 only when (A) the space is occupied and (B)
there’s a thermal load condition (or manual control – see Section
5.4) triggering the operation of the ventilation system.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Your original question is confusing to at least a few of us
because of stating an office ceases to be a “zone” at night…
It’s a terminology thing, but 62.1 and other standards will become
more digestible to you when you recognize that’s not the case. The
clarification we’re making here is that where a zone occupancy (i.e.
“office”) is decided and a constant over time, something like
“occupancy rate” can be variable.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’d like to also point out, based on your first inquiry,
that the equation at 6.2.2.1 uses <u>maximum</u> zone occupancy to establish
the minimum design OA rate, not the hourly occupancy rate (which may be zero).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~Nick</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><img src="cid:image001.jpg@01CA6399.2C0FCEA0" alt="cid:489575314@22072009-0ABB" width="119" border="0" height="37"></span><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">NICK CATON, E.I.T.</span></b><b><span style="font-family: "Stylus BT"; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);">PROJECT ENGINEER</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: rgb(204, 153, 0);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">25501 west valley parkway</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">olathe ks 66061</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">direct 913 344.0036</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">fax 913 345.0617</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(45, 77, 94);">Check out our new web-site @ </span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.smithboucher.com" title="blocked::www.smithboucher.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">www.smithboucher.com</span></a></span><u><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"> </span></u><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Guin,
Michael<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:Shawn.Lee@fluor.com" target="_blank">Shawn.Lee@fluor.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 62.1 unoccupied space minimum outdoor
airsupply</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">is
there any requirement to provide minimum outdoor fresh air wihin the
office space when it is unoccupied according to ASHRAE 62.1</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Do
you think it it clear enough? </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Regards</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Michael</span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:Shawn.Lee@fluor.com" target="_blank">Shawn.Lee@fluor.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:Shawn.Lee@fluor.com" target="_blank">Shawn.Lee@fluor.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 November 2009 13:58<br>
<b>To:</b> Guin, Michael<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] ASHRAE 62.1 unoccupied space minimum outdoor air
supply</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Michael,</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Technically
answering your question may not help you much. You need to make the
question clearer and more meaningful. Tell people what you are trying to
do, what is in your mind, and what you are trying to accomplish. Then
this group may help you more on the target.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Thanks.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Shawn Lee, PhD,
PE</span> </p>
<table style="width: 100%;" width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top"></td>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 7.5pt;">"Guin,
Michael" <Michael.Guin@WSPGroup.com></span></b> <br>
<span style="font-size: 7.5pt;">Sent by:
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a></span> <br>
<span style="font-size: 7.5pt;">11/12/2009
06:09 AM</span> </p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top">
<table style="width: 100%;" width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;" align="right"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt;">To</span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt;"><<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>></span>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;" align="right"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt;">cc</span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;" align="right"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt;">Subject</span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt;">[Bldg-sim]
ASHRAE 62.1 unoccupied space minimum outdoor air supply</span> </p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top"></td>
<td style="padding: 0.75pt;" valign="top"></td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal"></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"> </p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Dear all,</span>
</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ASHARE 62.1 2007
deifned zone as an occupied space. Table 6-1 provides the calculation for
different spaces based on occupancy and floor area of the occupied space.</span>
</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">If we
consider an unoccupied office space at night (i.e. not strictly a "zone
anymore" ); is there any requirement to provide minimum fresh air
wihin the office space. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Thanks in
advance for your help</span> <span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
Michael </span> </p>
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