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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Luka,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I believe Seth was addressing utility rates in Step 2, the
Aggregate Building / DES scenario. In that case, I agree that actual fuel
costs (e.g. electricity and fuel oil) should be used. However, my
question was in regards to Step 1, when fuel costs associated with cooling and
heating equipment in the existing central energy plant are to be replaced with
costs for “Purchased Energy.” In this case, what Chilled
Water and Hot Water rates should be used, particularly if there is no nearby
District Thermal Energy provider from which to infer “local market rates?”
Additionally, the USGBC “DTE Treatment” document refers to the
USGBC Reference Guide to answer this question, but I have been unable to find
what part is being referenced.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Clark<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Matutinovic, Luka
[mailto:LMatutinovic@halsall.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 04, 2009 11:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Clark Denson; Seth P. Spangler; Karen Walkerman;
bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div id=idOWAReplyText95995>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Clark,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I
believe the document you are looking for is here:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a
href="http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176">http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Let
me see if I understand your question correctly: you're not certain what energy
rate to apply to the steam or hot water used by the new building since there
isn't another example of a hot water or steam plant in the state from which to
obtain rates? If that's the case, you don't need to look for rates.
As Seth pointed out and as far as I know you only need to find the
local rate for whatever fuel the CEP is using to generate hot water or
steam. If they are using oil, then the local oil rate (likely the
commercial rate, not the residential one) would apply. Ultimately, the CEP is
consuming some type of fuel to generate thermal energy and the building is
modelled as also consuming the same fuel. I believe the intent of this
methodology is to prevent any skewing of results that might arise from the
CEP's abilities to use economies of scale to offer lower rates, or conversely
charge premiums for capital investment and maintenance. This ensures that
only the efficiency of the building, the CEP and the distribution systems
factors into the EAc1 calculation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I
hope that answers your question.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Luka</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Luka
Matutinovic, </span></b><span class=spelle><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>B.A.Sc</span></span><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>., LEED<sup>®</sup> AP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><span style='font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></em><i><span
style='font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>
</span></i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>T.
416.644.0649</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>F.
416.487.9766 <br>
Toll Free 1.888.425.7255<br>
www.halsall.com <br>
</span><span style='font-size:6.0pt'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>HALSALL
ASSOCIATES LTD. <br>
</span></b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Toronto
Richmond Hill Ottawa Sudbury <br>
Burlington Calgary Vancouver Dubai <br>
</span><br>
<strong><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>‘50
Best Workplaces in Canada’ </span></strong><b><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
</span></b><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>2009
Globe and Mail</span></i><i><span style='font-size:7.5pt'><br>
</span></i><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span><strong><span
style='color:black'> </span></strong><strong><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:green'>Please consider the environment
before printing this e-mail</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org on
behalf of Clark Denson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Fri 02/10/2009 5:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Seth P. Spangler; Karen Walkerman; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’ve been interested in the topic of District Thermal
Energy treatment, as well. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My question concerns Step 1 (Building stand-alone
scenario): In a campus setting like a hospital, new buildings are
typically served by an existing CEP, and yet the new building is not charged a
rate for CHW or HW. The USGBC guidance indicates that in this case,
“local market rates as explained in the LEED v2.2 Reference Guide”
should be used. However, I have not found this data to be readily accessible,
nor have I found guidance in the LEED Reference Guide. In my most recent
project in Florida, I’ve been able to find District Chilled Water plants
close to the project site, but it is my understanding that there is not a
single District Hot Water or Steam Plant in the entire state!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What do I do in this case? And where in the LEED Reference
Guide is the “Treatment” referring to?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks for your help,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Clark Denson</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Seth P. Spangler
[mailto:sspangle@rmf.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 02, 2009 12:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Karen Walkerman; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0070C0'>Karen,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0070C0'>I gave a presentation on this subject with a member from
USGBC and this exact question was brought up. The answer was to use the local
rate for both systems. LEED/ASHRAE require that the energy rate be the same for
both the baseline and proposed designs. </span><i>Fuel and electricity rates
are assigned using the local utility rate schedules as they would normally
apply to the building and using the normal ASHRAE and LEED modeling rules. </i><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0070C0'>This
line while a little ambiguous means that you should use the rate that would be
applied to the building if it was not connected to the plant, not the
discounted rate that the plant most likely receives. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#0070C0'>Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:#0070C0'>Seth Spangler, LEED® AP </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:#0070C0'>Project Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:#0070C0'>RMF Engineering, Inc </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:#0070C0'>Ph: (843) 971-9639 ext:1497</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:#0070C0'>Fax: (843) 971-9641 </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";
color:#0070C0'>sspangle@rmf.com</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen
Walkerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Hi All,<br>
<br>
I'm completing a model of a building that is heated by a central campus steam
plant for LEED NC 2.2 EA P1 and C1. I've followed the guidelines in
"Required Treatment of District Thermal Energy in LEED NC 2.2 and LEED for
Schools" dated May 28, 2008.<br>
<br>
I'm doing pretty well, but I'm a bit confused by the following paragraph (page
8 under the heading: Energy Model Implementation – Energy rates)<br>
<br>
Step 2 (Aggregate Building / DES scenario) – in this modeling scenario
the DES-supplied energy is not<br>
modeled as cost-neutral purchased energy, and thus purchased DES rates (chilled
water, steam, hot<br>
water) are ignored. Fuel and electricity rates are assigned using the local
utility rate schedules as they<br>
would normally apply to the building and using the normal ASHRAE and LEED
modeling rules. For<br>
the Baseline Building the rates are applied to the code-compliant heating or
cooling plant as instructed<br>
in Appendix G, and for the Proposed Building the rates are applied to the
virtual plant according to the<br>
actual energy sources used in the upstream DES (electricity, gas, oil, etc.).<br>
<br>
They are a bit unclear...<br>
<br>
If the central plant burns #6 oil, do you use the local rate for #6 oil for the
proposed system and the local rate for home heating oil for the baseline?<br>
<br>
OR<br>
<br>
do you use the local rate for home heating oil for both?<br>
<br>
Has anyone submitted one of these projects yet?<br>
<br>
Thanks for your help.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Karen<o:p></o:p></p>
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